So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?

[Joker86]

No you won't feel it. As I said before you probably get shot by or encounter an HA as a melee once in a play time of a couple of hours. Unless you're one of those who consistently rambo's and gets caught unaware, if you play with the team, and the servers populated I doubt you'll notice the difference as most HA spread their arrows. Sure it'll hopefully improve hit rate in a 1vs1 situation but these are rare and the arrows already do little damage, especially if you have higher tier armour. So that's why I said you won't notice it. Because I really doubt any 1 player will except for the HA who's doing the shooting.

But it's exactly those 1 on 1 where HAs are experienced as being so annoying. And the arrows doing little damage is no argument I can accept either.

Again, I am not against a small buff for your class, but if you reason it it needs to be a real reason (like: [archer accuracy] x [size of their nose] > [HA accuracy] x [sze of their nose], and that's why HA damage needs to be buffed), and not "You won't notice it", because to me that's equal to "Oh come on, pleeeeeeez!".

A nice deal would be that every point in HA raises the damage your horse receives by melee weapons by 5%. You get shot most of the time, a melee character will kill your horse only once in a couple of hours, when you get cought unaware when playing with the team or go rambo, so you won't actually notice it. 

Overdriven, I am not discussing this to annoy you or to show how right I am, it's just because I don't want other lobbies to try the same trick. You won't notice a slight missile speed or accuracy increase for throwing weapons. You won't notice stronger shields. You won't notice 1 or two points bump damage more. And so on. The list can be extended as you please.

[Leshma]

Also, would like to point out that we already have balance discussion subforum...

And no, I won't support you unless you support my hybrids

[Berserkadin]

To all HA here : I am not complaining about an HA buff, I am commenting on the stupidity of berserkadin.

What I said in my previous post are statements that I think apply no matter what the situation of HA is. At the moment HA are UP so I'm fine with an HA buff. I'm not fine however, with 10 HA roaming a battle server, cause that's simply not fun for everybody else playing. But we haven't reached this point back yet so do whatever you want.

Well it felt right to counter your stupidity with more hostile stupidity, clearly you won't be able to see past your very closed perspective.

Ranged didn't kill the mod, all the whiny ass QQ:ers who just yelled for nerf after nerf killed the mod. Maybe you should go see a therapist and get over yourself instead of destroying everyones else fun. I don't like delaying HA's, thats just griefing and being an ass, but should you nerf a whole class because some people behave like idiots? Sounds pretty stupid to me.

Something that could make melee more worthwhile would be to speed up melee, since now its so goddamn slow.

[Cris]

Also, would like to point out that we already have balance discussion subforum...

And no, I won't support you unless you support my hybrids

But much more people look at this forums.

I'm all for hybrids, I loved the old days when everyone could do ranged and melee if they wished :-) Isn't doing what you want the point of cRPG after all? no set classes? I'd be nice to see that again

[Kafein]

Well it felt right to counter your stupidity with more hostile stupidity, clearly you won't be able to see past your very closed perspective.

I feel I should just throw that back to you, but that would be childish.

Ranged didn't kill the mod

I never said it did and we agree it didn't.

, all the whiny ass QQ:ers who just yelled for nerf after nerf killed the mod.

Well of course not changing anything when the playerbase evolves is proved to be the best strategy. Duh.

Maybe you should go see a therapist and get over yourself instead of destroying everyones else fun.

Again, who is this mysterious "everyone" ? Not that I lobby for destroying anyone's fun in the first place. I lobby for improving it. If that means some classes that turn the game into hell for others had to be hurt in the process, so be it.

I don't like delaying HA's, thats just griefing and being an ass, but should you nerf a whole class because some people behave like idiots? Sounds pretty stupid to me.

Until we find a way to discriminate between people being dicks or not (hint : we won't), changing how the game works in an objective way is the only solution. Besides, HA are always being dicks, unlike most other classes. For example, not all tanks only use great mauls and only camp at the top of a ladder. However, all HA do shoot at defenseless melee and cav. There's admittedly a difference between HAs that will stalk someone until he dies, shooting while standing still just far enough not to be reachable and those that ride and shoot at different targets, but still.

Something that could make melee more worthwhile would be to speed up melee, since now its so goddamn slow.

Okay. I don't see how this is related to the rest of your post though.

[Berserkadin]

I feel I should just throw that back to you, but that would be childish.

I never said it did and we agree it didn't.

Well of course not changing anything when the playerbase evolves is proved to be the best strategy. Duh.

Again, who is this mysterious "everyone" ? Not that I lobby for destroying anyone's fun in the first place. I lobby for improving it. If that means some classes that turn the game into hell for others had to be hurt in the process, so be it.

Until we find a way to discriminate between people being dicks or not (hint : we won't), changing how the game works in an objective way is the only solution. Besides, HA are always being dicks, unlike most other classes. For example, not all tanks only use great mauls and only camp at the top of a ladder. However, all HA do shoot at defenseless melee and cav. There's admittedly a difference between HAs that will stalk someone until he dies, shooting while standing still just far enough not to be reachable and those that ride and shoot at different targets, but still.

Okay. I don't see how this is related to the rest of your post though.

I thought we had rules to discriminate between people being dicks or not. No HA's aren't always being dicks, thats your opinion. I really enjoy playing ranged cav, but guess how fun it is for me who barely got any looms to play as a HA, you should try it out. Barely doing any damage, getting raped by other ranged and cavalry. Because of people like you lobbying against one of the weakest classes in the game because you find their playstyle to be dicky. Lancers "destroy" my fun, I used to have an agenda against them, but now I just join siege and have fun instead. If you want people to destroy your fragile sense of having fun, you will surely find a way. And it seems like a lot of people, just relax and get over it.

[Rumblood]

Until we find a way to discriminate between people being dicks or not (hint : we won't), changing how the game works in an objective way is the only solution.

MOTD was changed to always spawn. Rules changed so that ranged can't search for ammo at end of round as last player.

Hint: You take the changes, pocket them, and pretend nothing changed so you can say nothing will ever be done.

[Tears of Destiny]

MOTD was changed to always spawn. Rules changed so that ranged can't collect ammo at end of round as last player.

Apparently this does not apply to throwers, which on NA kite as bad as everyone else...

[Rumblood]

Apparently this does not apply to throwers...

The rules state you can't go searching for ammo. This prevents someone for kiting forever with the excuse of "looking for ammo".

Throwers like Chucky are not searching for ammo. They are picking it up 10 feet away, right where they threw it. There is no searching going on. There is no endless drawing of the round while they round around.

Common sense and what the rules are written to address. They matter 

Let me give you a perfect example:

NOT OK: hiding when last man standing (i.e. delaying)

Know how this can be applied? You the last 2 hander hiding behind a tree avoiding arrows while waiting to MOTD to pop? Oh hell no, no hiding. Get out into the open so you can be shot down.

We don't apply it that way. Why? It does not pass the "common sense" standard, nor is it what the rule was designed to address. And that is how rules are applied, as they should be.

[Cris]

I thought we had rules to discriminate between people being dicks or not. No HA's aren't always being dicks, thats your opinion. I really enjoy playing ranged cav, but guess how fun it is for me who barely got any looms to play as a HA, you should try it out. Barely doing any damage, getting raped by other ranged and cavalry. Because of people like you lobbying against one of the weakest classes in the game because you find their playstyle to be dicky. Lancers "destroy" my fun, I used to have an agenda against them, but now I just join siege and have fun instead. If you want people to destroy your fragile sense of having fun, you will surely find a way. And it seems like a lot of people, just relax and get over it.

Looms don't make it much better.

And that is the whole point about asking the devs to take away the -10wpp per HA point. With loomed equipment and an accurate build, HA cant get even close to anything called accurate and are penalized when not our horses.

For example. An Arabian horn bow user with 4 HA has already spent at least 11 skill points to shoot on horse, plus another 8 for WM to in theory shoot well. That's 19 skill points, 11 of which are useless off horse in battle, which can die really quickly, and not even used in siege or strat...

HA already pay 11 extra skill points, 11! (some even more points) to shoot off horseback, maybe with some accuracy, why should we be penalized for spending those points? with the penalty we will still be inaccurate, but at least we'll be more useful on foot and be a bit less random off horseback.

Making WPP reductions for HA skill is like making melee cav's athletics or speed in general because for part of the game they are really quickly, or reduce their damage on foot because they can't fight on the ground for some magical reason.

The current so called balance is based on hate towards the class, not on real balance, and something must be done about it. --- As other HA and I have mentioned before, be it a buff, or the elimination of ranged cav in the game, something must be done, because nerf for hate is plainly unfair in a system that is design to build a character as you want it, we are not playing outside the rules of the game, why should we be penalized?

[Joker86]

The current so called balance is based on hate towards the class, not on real balance, and something must be done about it. --- As other HA and I have mentioned before, be it a buff, or the elimination of ranged cav in the game, something must be done, because nerf for hate is plainly unfair in a system that is design to build a character as you want it, we are not playing outside the rules of the game, why should we be penalized?

Actually hate does represent a factor for balancing. Everyone has a subjektive perception, and good game developers want to take care that the game is perceived as entertaining and motivating. If there is hate towards a certain aspect of the game, something is wrong.

Hate origins in most cases from frustration, for example dying without having made a mistake. Developers should always address issues generating frustration, and should change them. Sometimes they don't, if you play the Ascalon Catacombs in Guild Wars 2, for example, but in most cases it's enough to reduce the difficulty and everything's fine again.

In this case, the frustration comes from a small part of the community affecting another, bigger part of it. This makes changes difficult, because the usual solution of "making things easier" isn't working 100% any more. The final boss of a dungeon doesn't mind if he is getting nerfed, he won't be hurt or complain, because he consists of a lot of code, some animations, and a model with a texture. But players getting nerfed is always a bad thing. The Developers actually decided to stick to the "make things easier"-solution nonetheless, simply ignoring the smaller part of the community, which is sad.

On the other hand, making the source of the frustration and hatred stronger again, would also raise the level of hate, which is also unacceptable. It's a classical Middle East situation: whatever you do, there will be hate. If you find a good solution to the HA dilemma, I bet you can also make Israelis and Palestinians friends again. It's of about the same difficulty.

HA already pay 11 extra skill points, 11! (some even more points) to shoot off horseback, maybe with some accuracy, why should we be penalized for spending those points? without? the penalty we will still be inaccurate, but at least we'll be more useful on foot and be a bit less random off horseback.

Those 11 skills points spent make the character more "effective" (doesn't need to mean more deadly) in a lot of situations than most, I dare to say all other skill point combinations. To compensate for this, you are being penalized.

I don't know why the -10 WPF penalty does also apply on foot, but as I think about it, HAs enjoy such an enormous extend of flexibility, making them some decent AGI archers on foot would even increase that huge advantage.

[Overdriven]

Kings of KD video 2:04 lancer kills HA what is this shit? A counter? Wtf! (also at 3:06, 3:24)

[oprah_winfrey]

Kings of KD video 2:04 lancer kills HA what is this shit? A counter? Wtf! (also at 3:06, 3:24)

Nope, just a bad horse archer.

[oprah_winfrey]

The rules state you can't go searching for ammo. This prevents someone for kiting forever with the excuse of "looking for ammo".

Throwers like Chucky are not searching for ammo. They are picking it up 10 feet away, right where they threw it. There is no searching going on. There is no endless drawing of the round while they round around.

Common sense and what the rules are written to address. They matter 

Honestly, it really depends. If he throws misses and picks it up 10 seconds later that is one thing. BUT, I have seen Chucky as the last person alive kite players around the entire map  for over a minute to get back to that spot where his throwing axe is.

Edit:oops double post.

[papageorgio]

Kings of KD video 2:04 lancer kills HA what is this shit? A counter? Wtf! (also at 3:06, 3:24)

Shittttttt, we target horse archers because they are such easy kills. Only thing that even comes close to stopping us is Pole-arms and as you can see in the video, even that doesn't work sometimes.