So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?

[Overdriven]

I know what you are talking about. I can imagine how it sucks to waste half a quiver o a single enemy to finally bring him down. But on the other hand I would like to ecnourage you to put yourself into the position of some players having to fight infantry. You say things like "get shot by a few arrows" and "don't know how to combat it". But that's simply downplaying the incredibly annoying experience of being attacked by somebody who is literally invulnerable to you unless he decides to play really risky, or unless the circumstances are very special (yes, even on hilly terrain or on city maps you can still kite infantry, if you are careful. Ranged is another things, I admit.). It is not a good game design to have one class which is a 100% counter to some other classes, but has no 100% counter itself. Before you don't understand this, or better: before you don't make yourself really conscious about the feeling such an experience provokes, you won't be able to understand the flaming which goes around against HAs. You will answer the flaming with your own flaming, and the discussion will never end.

I've played as a 2h, hoplite, thrower, archer, xbow and shielder in battle enough times to know what it's like to deal with HA. And I honestly think that because I'm HA myself I know how they fight and rarely have trouble with them. Getting shot in the arse by sneaky foot ranged is more of a concern to me as a footman rather than an HA who does little damage. They are a minor annoyance, nothing more. And as long as you are aware of them, which isn't hard, there's no issue. People just need to learn how to deal with it. The same way foot constantly complain about lancers as well. A lot just don't know how to manage it or just don't care enough to be aware. That is not the fault of the class being 100% invulnerable but the fault of the player on the receiving end.

Maybe if more people tried HA before bitching about them they'd understand where we are coming from. And they also might learn something about fighting them. When you're the one riding the horse you realise what's dangerous and what's not and this can transfer into your actions as a footman. That's partly why I have an alt in as many classes as possible. Even got myself a ninja alt.

But they aren't. A 0 athletics horse archer on the ground, everything else being the same, is nowhere near as effective offensively or defensively as a 7-9 athletics foot archer. 

In terms of accuracy though they were and that was a big enough of an issue that people complained. I only supported it because it was less of a nerf than many of the others suggested.

[Geon]

I wasn't going to post in this thread, but I decide to just point out a few things from my own experiences as HA(NOTE: I AM NOT THE BEST HA OUT THERE BY ANY MEANS). Many of you may not even know who I am anyway since I quit for over a year and only in the past month have started playing again.

I do believe the issue of having HA mastery not lower wpf was proposed over a  year again (I remember talking about it) yet it's still implemented. So I can't see it changing anytime soon.
The way I choose to play HA tends to be far more aggressive than most HA would go for. I focus more on keeping my teammates safe from enemy lancers, or give a -hopefully- helpful bump to those in need. Of course staying too close to the enemy infantry or ranged easily gets you dehorsed.

Most of the time you are immediately jumped up, raped from all angles without a chance to switch to your side arm (that is if you even carry one). Sometimes though you survive, and now you're a foot archer. Unless you find another horse you will be moving pretty damn slowly. Enemy archers will out draw you, and enemy cavalry will pounce upon you like ravenous beasts. Such is the life of a horse archer.

I love the class though, it's always been my favorite even through the tedious times of 20+ misses in a row. Do I expect to be able to shoot accurately when my horse is moving at max speed? No. That would be crazy! However, I don't feel like horse archers should have to be moving at a slow-mid speed trot to get a accurate shot. Which is where it stands at the moment.

Horse archery is a "support" class, as it should be. You get to view the battle from a different angle, and are able to take advantage of this. Shooting the backs of unsuspecting prey, or just plowing through someone (hopefully not being baited to your doom). I don't ever expect to top the scoreboards or kill the most people in a round, but people treat most horse archers like shit. Spitting upon my horse and I like we are trash meant to be disposed of in the most inhumane way.

I am not a mounted machine gunner spraying thousands of rounds into the enemy line while laughing maniacally. I am a horse archer! Proud and true! I'll shoot you! I'll miss! So I'll bump you and shoot you again and hopefully hit! Until you die - or start spinning! Then I'll move on to the next job.

So please good gentlemen, give me a chance to pierce the skies and your armor a little more!

FOR THE TEAM, FOR THE FUN, FOR THE LAUGHING MANIACALLY!

TL;DR buff pls.

[Grumbs]

No. Play CS or some shit BF game.

IMO

[JackieChan]

Well, it's because players know that a rebalance won't change most problems they have with HAs, it will only make them more effective again, which means that the guys they hate will have it easier to score kills. That's the general reaction.

HAs are both very mobile and able to fight over distance, which makes them a dangerous enemy. That's why they got nerfed to the ground, but still they are "annoying" (at least). Which, in my eyes, is not a solution of the problem and doesn't help anybody, neither the HAs nor their victims.

I was saying that the mechanics need to be changed, instead of having another rebalance. Perhaps you didn't know my suggestion, so I will explain it with a few sentences:

If we changed the battle mode (round based team deathmatch: "kill all enemies") to round based conquest (take and hold the majority of all flags on the map to make the enemy lose some abstract ressource and make him lose the round) things would change. Suddenly you wouldn't have to kill those horse archers any more, if you can't. You could simply get to the next flag and defend it. The horse archer would have to conquer the flag himself to prevent you of winning, which means he can still do his "shoot and run" thing, but (given the absolutely required condition that every flag also offers some cover, a good map design is part of my suggestion!) the shooting won't be too effective, and the running will not be needed.

So if HAs love to ride around and pepper people with their arrows they can still do it, and with the buffs they should receive they would be even better at it than now, but it won't annoy the shit out of the people because it wouldn't be so important for winning the round any more. On the other hand it wouldn't be unimportant either. Conclusion: HAs have more fun, rest is less annoyed and thus has more fun, everyone is happy, nobody is nerfed.

That's how I think you can solve the problem. You see how my suggestion differs from any "WPF-Power Draw-Missile Speed"-suggestion (= rebalance sugestion)? You are free to find another solution which also improves the things like mine, but doesn't really affect the "deadlyness" of a class. All I can say is, that finding such a solution will be difficult as hell.

I like the idea of a conquest mod, but i woulnt want it to replace the good old battle mod. As it ressemble more Siege mod, which i never play ^^


EDIT: Ill stop posting in this topic since its slowly turning into a argument between PRO buff and OPPOSIT buff  and i havent got time for that

[Arrowblood]

No. Play CS or some shit BF game.

IMO

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[Grumbs]

Shielders: Sure buff HA, why not (doesn't affect me)?
Archers: sure buff HA, I don't care, maybe I will even try HA
HA: BUFF PLS!
Melee: This is were it gets interesting. We have people who don't care (sure give a little buff), and people who strongly oppose it. These guys are the only ones who have a legitimate say, everyone else is campaigning for something that doesn't affect them or something that could benefit them. Lots of BS really, can't take it seriously

[Xol!]

*snip*

A good part of the vitriolic hatred towards HA and HX comes from the end of round 'delaying'.  It's not really deserved, as most of the good HA/HX players won't do it unless they know they have a good chance of clutching, but it only takes one or two really shitty conservative players to ruin the community's attitude towards the class as a whole.

[Pentecost]

Shielders: Sure buff HA, why not (doesn't affect me)?
Archers: sure buff HA, I don't care, maybe I will even try HA
HA: BUFF PLS!
Melee: This is were it gets interesting. We have people who don't care (sure give a little buff), and people who strongly oppose it. These guys are the only ones who have a legitimate say, everyone else is campaigning for something that doesn't affect them or something that could benefit them. Lots of BS really, can't take it seriously

I'd like you to clarify something. Are you suggesting here that all it takes to be "unaffected" by a horse archer is having a decent shield?

[Grumbs]

People who's primary role involves holding a shield are affected far less than pure melee classes, similarly with regular archers

My role is completely obstructed if I switch to shield. I'm a purely defensive role in that case. Even with a shield on my back my primarily role is harshly affected. The reduced speed isn't worth having the detrimental affect on my main role.

People forget too why people play this game. The melee combat with manual blocking is one of the main things that made M&B so popular. Its such a waste to insist people play it with one of the main game mechanics taken away, just because some baddie FPS players want to hit slow moving targets that can't shoot back.

HA/Hxbow drag rounds out, they increase everyone's upkeep by making us take extra ticks when everyone else has already died. They shoot from a position of safety against slow moving targets and in any other real FPS game most likely these guys would have no chance at all

[Tindel]

If you dont play this game with a 4 directional weapon and manual blocking.....
Why?  its the only fucking point of the game. All other aspects of it are done better elsewhere

Being ranged at all in a game revolving around hand to hand combat is all about griefing.
Do you like griefing?
Shooting people and ruining their shit, denying them a chance to play the game and have fun.

In fact im not sure why its even a part of the game anymore, its just so incredibly annoying and just ruins the experience.
Its not even fun to kill a ranged guy when you finally catch him, cause most cant fight back or even if they can it will be unfair.

Balance the game in the right direction.

Remove HA, its the best solution.

[Overdriven]

Lol now that's just getting to trolling. I don't know any other games that have a competent archery system in, much less HA system in a good multiplayer set up. The manual combat is not even close to being the 'unique' selling point of the game.

There's a reason why the melee only server never had any numbers.

HA/Hxbow drag rounds out, they increase everyone's upkeep by making us take extra ticks when everyone else has already died.

Devs must love us. They are forever looking for new gold sinks.

People who's primary role involves holding a shield are affected far less than pure melee classes, similarly with regular archers

My role is completely obstructed if I switch to shield. I'm a purely defensive role in that case. Even with a shield on my back my primarily role is harshly affected. The reduced speed isn't worth having the detrimental affect on my main role.

HA/Hxbow drag rounds out, they increase everyone's upkeep by making us take extra ticks when everyone else has already died. They shoot from a position of safety against slow moving targets and in any other real FPS game most likely these guys would have no chance at all

And as a result you have to deal with the consequences. A bloody tourny shield can stop enough arrows to get rid of an HA. Remind me how many slots does a 2h weapon take? How many slots does a tourny shield take? How difficult is it to stay near your team?

Answers are pretty obvious.

We aren't saying you can't use melee blocking. And HA are rare enough that it's hardly an issue for 90% of the players on the battlefield any one round. If not more. But you should be prepared to adapt to different situations. If that requires 1 point in the shield skill, then be prepared to do that. People in crpg believe far to much in 'pure' builds. When spending 1 extra point could make all the difference. In a battle situation it doesn't actually matter that much. If you're that worried stick to duel.

[Tindel]

Try Quake,  or counterstrike?

[Overdriven]

Competent archery system.

[Shaksie]

Yeah horse archery is pretty ridiculously bad. You almost can't shoot when moving and you can't hold the arrow back long enough to have a reasonable rate of fire while slowing down to retain accuracy. Horse Crossbowers are quite a bit better because they can aim for as long as they like but to be honest both classes' damage is too low for their horrid moving accuracy. That being said buffing their accuracy while at speed is a delicate topic; they could become extremely overpowered very easily or as they currently are; quite underpowered.

Mounted ranged is only fun for you playing it, the rest of us hates the existence of the class. And for all you turds that are going to yell at me that you should be able to play the game in a way you like, you're wrong. Cause I would like to play the game as a flamberge wielding centaur with a jetpack and I can't.

So for being a selfish dick, you get the effectivity of a stone, seems fair to me.

I love you, Teeth >8')

[Tindel]

Archery is about leading shots, and calculating trajectory and fallof on the go right?

Quake1 came out like 16 years ago right?  Rocket launcher and grenade launcher.  Done 100times better than in crpg.