So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?

[Joker86]

We are not arrogant (well at least i hope not), we are just kinda fed up and fustrated from all the hate and QQ our class generated, which at the end resulted in so many nerfs that most (including me) old horse archers rage quitted the class.

And for the few times that we ask for rebalance of the class we see so much people posting against it, we tend to react like this for the rest of the topic:

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Well, it's because players know that a rebalance won't change most problems they have with HAs, it will only make them more effective again, which means that the guys they hate will have it easier to score kills. That's the general reaction.

HAs are both very mobile and able to fight over distance, which makes them a dangerous enemy. That's why they got nerfed to the ground, but still they are "annoying" (at least). Which, in my eyes, is not a solution of the problem and doesn't help anybody, neither the HAs nor their victims.

I was saying that the mechanics need to be changed, instead of having another rebalance. Perhaps you didn't know my suggestion, so I will explain it with a few sentences:

If we changed the battle mode (round based team deathmatch: "kill all enemies") to round based conquest (take and hold the majority of all flags on the map to make the enemy lose some abstract ressource and make him lose the round) things would change. Suddenly you wouldn't have to kill those horse archers any more, if you can't. You could simply get to the next flag and defend it. The horse archer would have to conquer the flag himself to prevent you of winning, which means he can still do his "shoot and run" thing, but (given the absolutely required condition that every flag also offers some cover, a good map design is part of my suggestion!) the shooting won't be too effective, and the running will not be needed.

So if HAs love to ride around and pepper people with their arrows they can still do it, and with the buffs they should receive they would be even better at it than now, but it won't annoy the shit out of the people because it wouldn't be so important for winning the round any more. On the other hand it wouldn't be unimportant either. Conclusion: HAs have more fun, rest is less annoyed and thus has more fun, everyone is happy, nobody is nerfed.

That's how I think you can solve the problem. You see how my suggestion differs from any "WPF-Power Draw-Missile Speed"-suggestion (= rebalance sugestion)? You are free to find another solution which also improves the things like mine, but doesn't really affect the "deadlyness" of a class. All I can say is, that finding such a solution will be difficult as hell.

[Rumblood]

And thats why i never post on forums, beeing forced to respond to post like this...
There is so much flaws in this post that i dont know where to start. Ill just go point by point and try to be as brief as possible:

Just give it up. They hate the class and so will flood your thread with exaggerations and falsehoods. They aren't even trying to understand your points, so don't bother trying to explain yourself and don't bother trying to correct what they already know is false.

[Taser]

Just give it up. They hate the class and so will flood your thread with exaggerations and falsehoods. They aren't even trying to understand your points, so don't bother trying to explain yourself and don't bother trying to correct what they already know is false.

Pretty much this. Most people will just say HA's suck rather than try and think of a way to make it better since they don't want it better.

Its why I find it ironic that Joker, a person who absolutely hates ranged and would rather have no ranged at all in this game, is suggesting one of the best suggestions in this thread. Its the same one he's been trying to suggest for the better part of a year (or more?) and is widely supported and would fix a lot of issues, such as why people dislike HA's.

[Cepeshi]

Guys, dunno if right or not, but i have never seen a HA admitting that the gamestyle of the class is ultragay and is fun perhaps only for the guys playing it. Where is the fun in chasing one last guy on horse while you are 5 guys without any ranged capability whatsoever and/or shields? Frustrating to hell to lose a round like this. (Corsair anyone, and do not tell me not to use him as example, all them 2h haters are usually pissed on few certain players aswell, i like the guy, but i hate to fight against him).

And Cris, to be honest, i am really surprised you are the one bringing this up. Everytime we met on battle and you decided to kill me, you just did, i had no way to protect myself. You could just stand on hill across the village and snipe me. Yes, that happened two days ago. Maybe three now. Do not complain about accuracy when i rarely see you miss when you chase my horse. I can dodge, run, jump, do anything, but you never seem to miss one shot on me, care to explain?

And to the guy bringing up the fairness of class...come on, you spent all your points to be annoying as fuck and then when discussed about this you tell others: anyone can be thrower (well guess what, i would have to GIMP my spec to get somewhat useable throwing capabilities, some HA will not risk getting hit by dagger, some will and once they find out how laughably weak they are with no PD, they will just rape you anyways). You spec in certain way that makes you annoying as hell for most of the server and you ask others to change their build in order to be able to counter you? Come on.

I have played lots and lots of classes over my almost 30 generations, i would not say i am one of the best, but also i think i am not just average player, i have my ups and downs, but when it comes to HA, there are no ups to be had. Yes, i could go thrower in order to survive few HAs circling my team, but then i would not have much fun fighting in melee cause i would have crippled build. And yes, i do need all the stats i can get in order to dodge all the shit that flies or rides around these days.

So, basically, you are all sad that HA got nerfed to state noone plays it. I beg to differ. There are still quite a lot of ranged cav on server during most of the day, i do not see that all those people would play the class just cause they love it.

[Leesin]

There are still quite a lot of ranged cav on server during most of the day, i do not see that all those people would play the class just cause they love it.

That's where you're wrong, even if they nerfed HA, AGAIN, I would still play it, just because I enjoy it. But personally I couldn't care less what they do with it, I still piss plenty of people off and help my team so I'm happy.

[Cepeshi]

That's where you're wrong, even if they nerfed HA, AGAIN, I would still play it, just because I enjoy it. But personally I couldn't care less what they do with it, I still piss plenty of people off and help my team so I'm happy.

I quoted the issue, you and i believe most of the HA or HX out there, play cause you like to piss others off, you do not want everyone to have fun, its good as long as you are the one laughing, ey? 

[Rumblood]

I quoted the issue, you and i believe most of the HA or HX out there, play cause you like to piss others off, you do not want everyone to have fun, its good as long as you are the one laughing, ey? 

Oh it was great fun before, but the more you post and the madder you get, it just adds that extra spice now 

[Cepeshi]

Oh it was great fun before, but the more you post and the madder you get, it just adds that extra spice now 

anything to keep the HA community happy 

[Leesin]

I quoted the issue, you and i believe most of the HA or HX out there, play cause you like to piss others off, you do not want everyone to have fun, its good as long as you are the one laughing, ey? 

Well besides the fun I have playing HA, yes, I do enjoy seeing players on the enemy team raging, it's psychological warfare, get the enemy pissed, trying to hunt you, take their focus away from the real goal of actually winning and make them just want to kill you badly. And after all why shouldn't I enjoy that, considering it's one of the only things for the HA that wasn't nerfed into the dirt.

[Azlanek]

I don't like Horse Archers, but it is very rewarding when you finally get a chance to get some payback on them. And this is coming from a ninja class.

I say buff them.

[Overdriven]

Regardless on the situation, there is another point: When dehorsed (which is easily done) HA still have to live the HA WPP penalty, thats another unfairness on the class.

This was actually a change a lot of people agreed with a while ago when it was deemed that it was unfair for HA to be as effective as foot archers on foot. Something I can understand. Yeah it doesn't actually make sense but from a balancing pov it's fine.

Really, every HA player in this forum except of Cris has an incredible arrogance concerning his class, and is unwilling to accept that the absolutely superior mechanics of horse archers (attacking over range is better than attacking in melee, and being on horse is better than being on foot => better mechanics than all other classes) are incredibly annoying to everyone else. Never mind if it's Overdriven, Mylet or you now.

At least I don't make the same damn post in every thread.

But seriously when people rage over HA so much it gets tiring. Especially when it led to our class being heavily nerfed to being no where near as effective as before for no other reason that gamers getting their knickers in a twist because they got shot by a few arrows. It's got nothing to do with arrogance. Simply a disdain for people who choose to hate on one particular class for no other reason than they don't know how to combat it.

I quoted the issue, you and i believe most of the HA or HX out there, play cause you like to piss others off, you do not want everyone to have fun, its good as long as you are the one laughing, ey? 

True enough. That's why I focus almost entirely on enemy cavalry. They get very pissed off when you shoot down their horses.

Guys, dunno if right or not, but i have never seen a HA admitting that the gamestyle of the class is ultragay and is fun perhaps only for the guys playing it. Where is the fun in chasing one last guy on horse while you are 5 guys without any ranged capability whatsoever and/or shields? Frustrating to hell to lose a round like this. (Corsair anyone, and do not tell me not to use him as example, all them 2h haters are usually pissed on few certain players aswell, i like the guy, but i hate to fight against him).

And Cris, to be honest, i am really surprised you are the one bringing this up. Everytime we met on battle and you decided to kill me, you just did, i had no way to protect myself. You could just stand on hill across the village and snipe me. Yes, that happened two days ago. Maybe three now. Do not complain about accuracy when i rarely see you miss when you chase my horse. I can dodge, run, jump, do anything, but you never seem to miss one shot on me, care to explain?

And to the guy bringing up the fairness of class...come on, you spent all your points to be annoying as fuck and then when discussed about this you tell others: anyone can be thrower (well guess what, i would have to GIMP my spec to get somewhat useable throwing capabilities, some HA will not risk getting hit by dagger, some will and once they find out how laughably weak they are with no PD, they will just rape you anyways). You spec in certain way that makes you annoying as hell for most of the server and you ask others to change their build in order to be able to counter you? Come on.

I have played lots and lots of classes over my almost 30 generations, i would not say i am one of the best, but also i think i am not just average player, i have my ups and downs, but when it comes to HA, there are no ups to be had. Yes, i could go thrower in order to survive few HAs circling my team, but then i would not have much fun fighting in melee cause i would have crippled build. And yes, i do need all the stats i can get in order to dodge all the shit that flies or rides around these days.

So, basically, you are all sad that HA got nerfed to state noone plays it. I beg to differ. There are still quite a lot of ranged cav on server during most of the day, i do not see that all those people would play the class just cause they love it.

Yes it's the same with any class. You want to counter one particular class, you have to change your build. It's how it works. No one build can take on everything hence having to work as a team. Being the only melee left vs ranged is your teams failing. It has nothing to do with the HA choosing the play style. Your teams ranged decided to get themselves killed and screwed over the team. Your guys didn't take shields and screwed themselves over. Not the HA's fault. If I as an HA wanted to have 1h cav capabilities I could. This could be to combat other 1h cav or give myself fighting ability on foot as many HA do. But it gimps their bow accuracy in the process. If they can do it why can't you?

Horses are big targets.

You don't want to be thrower or xbow or bow hybrid then you have to deal with the consequences. Not bitch and moan because you made a choice that means your useless in certain fights.

The only reason I play HA is because I love it. My hoplite alt gives me kills + a score far higher than anything I can achieve as an HA. But HA is my main because I love the play style. It's just not a very good one when looking at the basic set up.

[Overdriven]

Double post woops.

[Rumblood]

This was actually a change a lot of people agreed with a while ago when it was deemed that it was unfair for HA to be as effective as foot archers on foot. Something I can understand. Yeah it doesn't actually make sense but from a balancing pov it's fine.

But they aren't. A 0 athletics horse archer on the ground, everything else being the same, is nowhere near as effective offensively or defensively as a 7-9 athletics foot archer. 

[Joker86]

But seriously when people rage over HA so much it gets tiring. Especially when it led to our class being heavily nerfed to being no where near as effective as before for no other reason that gamers getting their knickers in a twist because they got shot by a few arrows. It's got nothing to do with arrogance. Simply a disdain for people who choose to hate on one particular class for no other reason than they don't know how to combat it.

I know what you are talking about. I can imagine how it sucks to waste half a quiver o a single enemy to finally bring him down. But on the other hand I would like to ecnourage you to put yourself into the position of some players having to fight infantry. You say things like "get shot by a few arrows" and "don't know how to combat it". But that's simply downplaying the incredibly annoying experience of being attacked by somebody who is literally invulnerable to you unless he decides to play really risky, or unless the circumstances are very special (yes, even on hilly terrain or on city maps you can still kite infantry, if you are careful. Ranged is another things, I admit.). It is not a good game design to have one class which is a 100% counter to some other classes, but has no 100% counter itself. Before you don't understand this, or better: before you don't make yourself really conscious about the feeling such an experience provokes, you won't be able to understand the flaming which goes around against HAs. You will answer the flaming with your own flaming, and the discussion will never end.

[Rumblood]

I know what you are talking about. I can imagine how it sucks to waste half a quiver o a single enemy to finally bring him down. But on the other hand I would like to ecnourage you to put yourself into the position of some players having to fight infantry. You say things like "get shot by a few arrows" and "don't know how to combat it". But that's simply downplaying the incredibly annoying experience of being attacked by somebody who is literally invulnerable to you unless he decides to play really risky, or unless the circumstances are very special (yes, even on hilly terrain or on city maps you can still kite infantry, if you are careful. Ranged is another things, I admit.). It is not a good game design to have one class which is a 100% counter to some other classes, but has no 100% counter itself. Before you don't understand this, or better: before you don't make yourself really conscious about the feeling such an experience provokes, you won't be able to understand the flaming which goes around against HAs. You will answer the flaming with your own flaming, and the discussion will never end.

I hear you Joker, but classes are a carrot and stick. HA on horse is a great carrot. HA dehorsed is a great stick. They can easily be run down by any shielder with their 0 athletics.

TinCan Heroes have a great carrot. They are Melee Gods on the battlefield. What they are grousing about is they can't stand having a stick too. That stick is that faster and mounted ranged can destroy them.

It's been said before, they could stick with their team, use their shielders, their own team's ranged by protecting them from enemy melee heroes, but they don't. They want to be Rambo, plowing through groups of soft targets with gleeful ease, until ranged does their job and stops Rambo from being Rambo. Then the rage and tears flow like blood from a stuck pig.

There actually is a Rambo class. It is 1 hand shielder + thrower. It can take any class down, HA/HX included. But they don't want to do that. Instead of dealing with their classes shortcomings, they DEMAND a nerf to their countering stick.