Author Topic: Common sense  (Read 7478 times)

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Offline Lt_Anders

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Re: Common sense
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2012, 10:34:52 pm »
0
Ladders make the best defensive fort as Siege shields are weak as hell and don't really stop cav. Con sites work, but they are expensive.
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Offline Sandersson Jankins

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Re: Common sense
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2012, 11:09:42 pm »
+2
I do not debate that point, anders. My question is whether or not the wonderfully effective ladder-forts are indeed legal. It just seems to me that using ladders in such a fashion is obviously not the intent of such things. Ladders are obviously intended for assaults on castles/towns.

The OP of this thread said that there are no set-in-stone strategus rules, but common sense should be used. To me, this means that laying ladders on top of rocks, against trees, against one another, or even just sitting on the ground violates the common sense rule.
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Offline Hobb

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Re: Common sense
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2012, 12:03:19 am »
+3
Ladders should be way more expensive or an actual fort building mechanism or cosntructable object needs to added, i think everyone can agree the ladder spam looks like shit and lags the servers.

Effective, but really lame .. You can throw 100 ladders for the cost of 1 large seige tower, and seige towers dont stop cav

Offline Lizard_man

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Re: Common sense
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2012, 02:18:53 pm »
+4
It seems to me that if you need fortifications, buy some damn siege shields.

This would be a viable tactic, and people probably wouldn't resort to using ladders instead. It's just that there's a limitation on siege shields, what is it, 6? And for the moment, there's nothing such as stakes that we can use against cavalry...
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Offline CrazyCracka420

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Re: Common sense
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2012, 02:50:31 pm »
+2
I always thought it was pretty ridiculous that you could buy 4 ladders and essentially make the enemy cavalry useless.

Would be nice if there was something like "wooden spikes" you can pound into the ground to stop cavalry, I'm assuming they wouldn't be nearly as long as a large or siege ladder...

Having 50 foot long pieces of equipment that make cavalry come to a complete stop is pretty cheesy, but it's strat so I'd expect nothing less than people doing everything they can to win.
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Offline Blackzilla

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Re: Common sense
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2012, 05:10:38 pm »
+2
Our ladders on the ground do not stop cav, it just stops them from couching and slows them down.
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Offline kinngrimm

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Re: Common sense
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2012, 06:32:28 pm »
+1
(click to show/hide)
The last information i have on ladders is, that you are not allowed to put them directly onto the flags.
The command was given to leave enough space between flags and spawn flags, so that spawn flags can still be deactivated.
With the first ladders which where put down i explicitly pointed where to put and what into direction and therefor the flags were not scratched.

If ladders aren't allowed then also f.e. Siege Towers shouldn't. How many siegetowers really have been used in history for open field battles, as far as i know those have been constructed directly at the castle or place which had been sieged.
Siege shields have a restriction, which makes them pretty mute in terms of protection alone for securing the own spawn position.
Perhaps we need spike walls which could be built from construction materials and then siege ladders and siege towers would be deactivated in open field battles.

I would like to have a ruling on ladders in open field battles as also for Siege Towers, if at all or within which limits they may be used. As mentioned before the only thing about siege ladders i am aware of so far what admins don't want is, that these shouldn't be put directly onto the flags, so that attackers wouldn't be able to put those down.
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Offline CrazyCracka420

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Re: Common sense
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2012, 06:45:00 pm »
+1
Our ladders on the ground do not stop cav, it just stops them from couching and slows them down.

It renders them 99% useless if you are inside a formation of ladders on the ground...that's why people do it.  A square formation of siege ladders around your infantry is better anti-cav defense than using your own cavalry, pikemen, or siege shields.  You basically come to a complete stop if you ride over a ladder.
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Offline BaleOhay

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Re: Common sense
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2012, 07:13:05 pm »
+2
I agree they  are against the spirit of their intended purpose.. Pile them up and they make great archer nests to shoot over shields and they do a great job of blocking incoming arrows. we mentioned this during a recent fight and were told to shut up and stop complaining. would be nice for an official ruling.

defense already has enough advantages. they do not need this one
« Last Edit: November 30, 2012, 07:17:06 pm by BaleOhay »
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Offline Blackzilla

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Re: Common sense
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2012, 07:19:04 pm »
0
You were told to shut up and quit complaining because there are no rules against ladders on the ground that make a defensive perimeter. For cav, get infantry to break the ladders, when they're broken cav charge in. Until they implement real barriers and protection from cav, ladder perimeters or forts should be a viable tactic. I won't complain if any of you use it against me.
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Offline BaleOhay

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Re: Common sense
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2012, 07:29:47 pm »
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Do not want to get off topic and into an argument over it.Looking for an official response to them .we did brake ladders which led to floating or sky ladders that continued to be used. That was our main complaint. as far as i knew the floating sky ladders were not allowed

regardless I stated my case above. Defense has plenty of advantages they do not need one that nullified cav and blocks arrows... can they even be broken by range?
« Last Edit: November 30, 2012, 11:11:03 pm by BaleOhay »
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Offline KaMiKaZe_JoE

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Re: Common sense
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2012, 08:08:50 pm »
+2
Ladders being thrown on the ground as hyper-gay defensive equipment is retarded and evil. There is no way any reasonable human being could ever see this as being a valid defensive tactic. I have no idea what the original topic was about, and I don't care now that ladders have been mentioned.

Ladders shouldn't be able to work at a certain angle. They're for climbing up shit, not creating fortifications and altering what should be a fun ebb and flow to a field battle.
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Offline Hobb

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Re: Common sense
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2012, 08:30:35 pm »
+2
Our ladders on the ground do not stop cav, it just stops them from couching and slows them down.

It slows cav down to to almost a complete stop taking away there biggest advantage. Now you need mayb 1-2 pikers to lock your entire spawn down because they get way longer to react.

Every big field battle results in the defense laddering the ground around their spawn, by their archers, and on their blindsides.. They then proceed to camp the spawn and average 1.5:1 kd or more with minimal strategy until the attacker spawn is nearly double the defense.

Not exactly my idea of a good strategy game. Shit defense tactics that results in an easy win every time for them, and it is mostly because of insta-defense from ladders. Although the attacking sidesi have been in against heavy ladder use have been very poorly managed and none of them forward spawned, however if attacker cav cant kill enemy archers or infantry because of 15 gold ladders (And in every battle all i could was cav v cav against enemies trying to couch spawn) the defense will still roll a much higher KD and just push out when their timers are 30+ and destroy the forward spawns.

Im not saying defense shouldnt be able to better their positions, but ladders are way to OP for the cost, and they make the gameplay shit.

I feel that as of right now, open field shiny v shiny is the worst situation for attackers. I would list them from easiest to hardest:

Village-town-castle-open field

Now obviously some castles are OP, but with the exception of wooden castles, every castle can be shot up and many are just terrible. Once the offense gets a breach point, the KD ratios instantly turn in favor of offense, and taking back walls that attackers have breached is a death trap. I wish there was data around to show the stats of each "even" geared castle battle. I know in the 7 or so hospi/tkov bulugha seiges last strat the results were always within 200 tickets when they could breach walls. (1500 vs castle) we would start out doing very strong, walls get breached it turns in their favor.

The open field battles since the new timer? Always huge slaughters in favor of defense. I feel cav and archers are the main factors for this, and they are ineffective for attackers. Defense cav rack up tons of spawn kills/ open field behind the back NA 1 style lancings. Destroy archers as well. Offensive cav cant touch these defensive ladder forts->archers->infantry

 Unlike every type of seige, offense cant do any flanking and defense gets to see their every move. So with infantry being equal, a clash of attacker infantry vs defender infantry results in a 1:1 KD with equal numbers. Offense never clashes with equal numbers because of ranged/cav, the result: defense gets a much betterKD then 1:1 and that coupled with the constant cav spawn rape, defense is flirting with a 2:1 which with the spawn timers is auto win for defense.

There are no cav in castles and once the walls are breached archers are way less effective for defense. Not mention you can raid a castle.

I guess what im getting at is ladders ruin open field battles because of how they destroy 1 class for 1 side, a class designed for open field. If we are going to allow this, they need to way more expensive. To me strat battles should be won with strategy, something that requires more then spawn camping with ladders until your opponent spawns twice as slow as you.



Offline CrazyCracka420

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Re: Common sense
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2012, 09:02:05 pm »
0
Agreed Hobb.  Ladders as anti-cav tactics are way too cheap for how effective they are.  Not to mention how long they are on the battle field (you could easily fit 50 people inside a square of 4 siege ladders).

I doubt it's possible, but a ladder that has both points resting on the ground should disappear.  Cavalry are really only useful in open field battles, and they are effectively useless if the enemy was smart and brought some ladders along. 
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Offline Sandersson Jankins

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Re: Common sense
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2012, 09:07:46 pm »
0
You were told to shut up and quit complaining because there are no rules against ladders on the ground that make a defensive perimeter. For cav, get infantry to break the ladders, when they're broken cav charge in. Until they implement real barriers and protection from cav, ladder perimeters or forts should be a viable tactic. I won't complain if any of you use it against me.

I'm not in the know about this specific situation; but don't go after other people on this, man. If you have hostility you need to get out, direct it toward me. I was the one that posed the question.

I'd like you to note that I did not say "GUYS HERO PARTY IS THROWING LADDERS DOWN AND WINNING MAKE THEM STOP THEYRE TOO GOOD I WANT TO WIN TOO." I've seen multiple factions do this, and it's been pretty high on the bundle of sticksry scale each time. Of course there's no rule against ladders on the ground; the OP said there were no official rules for strat. I'd really just like an authority figure to weigh in on this. It seems that most folks agree that it's goddang silly, but nothing can be done besides waving our dicks at one another unless someone with a banstick comes in the thread and tells us what's up.
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