The Truth Behind Tears' Declaration of War

[Garem]

Re: Tanken's first post.

I'm sure you see it that way. I can understand why you see it that way.

It's not entirely accurate, of course. You're assuming that claiming fiefs means something more than claiming fiefs- we went after the gold, sure, because we got off on a bad foot as a clan and didn't get enough fiefs. Quick cash was needed, and someone else had it at the time. If you thought that, we sure didn't know. This is a new Strat, there are new issues coming up. We'd have given you the fief (and ultimately did). Then we were attacked? Fine, fine, so we just let you get what you wanted.

You had said that we would have trade agreements (funny enough, in your fantastic post on the main thread you even mention that 'agreement', and then mention how things were "stolen" from you... huh?). Except those kept being conveniently revoked and confusing. I'm pretty sure this wasn't malicious, and I know it couldn't be mere confusion on KUTT's part since you're the sole authority in KUTT. When you're not a big group (NA Fallen clearly is not that big) - losing all those troops and all those goods is a SERIOUS problem. We kept getting held out on a limb. We got tired of being strung along.

You said that you had tried to contact us, but we hadn't been particularly unavailable that day. You didn't stand to lose much attacking a defenseless trader.

So it boils down to this: you were acting as if we weren't big enough to stop being bullied, however gently it may have been. You were sending a few guys to fight in our battles, but really, not that many. Not enough for sure. You were denying us important trade outlets. We tried working with you, but you never made it worth our while. Can't say we didn't try. Plus, we're hoping for some good battles here. Even with FCC attacking you, you're not NEARLY as outnumbered as Hospis are right now. You're also on the defensive. I don't think you're as screwed as you make it out to be.

Plus, as Kesh said in the other post, if you ARE screwed, nobody is quite sure why that is.

So you might have saved your kingdom by being more giving. Instead, we're getting something back and hoping for a net win in XP and land. We're not interested in seeing KUTT obliterated, we're interested in regaining our losses. If you want to be friends with Fallen (or anyone for that matter) make sure it remains worthwhile to them to remain at your side. And I use that term loosely- we never had any agreements beyond neighborliness, an interest in fighting fun battles, and a "trade agreement" (which terms continued to be unclear, and never to our benefit for long). For us, it's no longer useful to be neighborly now... and hasn't been for some time.

It's also pretty clear that none of this is personal. We have enjoyed fighting for you guys for a while - I can't say that about most other Teamspeaks. Considering how the FCC rosters keep getting filled, personally speaking, I hope to get in on your side for any of the big battles. Winning battles against empty rosters isn't much fun, and fortunately NA for the MOST part understands that. Those that whimper about oil money aside.

[Tanken]

Let me lay this out for you Garem, because apparently you and those whom were attacked in our territory of your clan missed this part, which has always been there in our diplomacy thread:

"Coalition Members (notify ahead of time on large trades)"

Was never notified of Vengst, and Remnants, being the clan that traded most actively in our territory can tell you that is all I ask. Might I remind you, that this time was a time when everyone was starting to figure out how big of a pain of an ass S&D really was and people that had neglected Prosperity ratings, were now realizing their importance.

Did I, or did I not give you the goods back, apologize for inconvenience, allow you to cashout goods now and use our S&D and offer to refund what we spent? Hell, if you guys had asked for the troops to be resent that wouldn't have been hard--but you didn't.

You failed to oblige by our trade rules, all we ask you to do is notify us ahead of time, I could have directed you to a fief where we could have worked a deal and had those taken care of, but you guys didn't. And why is that after this went down, it was you all apologizing to me for your mistake? It was your mistake, stop turning it like it was ours. We helped you get the stuff back.

My good sir, we did not reneg on any deal with KUTT.

There it is. Here, when yesterday you gave my member Dutchy_KUTT passage in your town. Now I find that you have lured him into a false-help and have him give you some goods or whatnot, and now have kicked him out and attacked him.Edit: I misunderstood what happened with Dutchy, but the fact remains you said he could be there and still attacked him. That's low, that's really low. It may not be a personal level, but the way you are trying to twist things to sound like it's anything but a land-grab spree for you guys and an attempt to be greedy is really ballbreaking to listen to.

* Tank Burner shakes his head.

Also, I'm fairly sure our trade agreement was one sided always. We've never purchased goods in your fiefs nor sold them as far as I know.

[MURDERTRON]

Sorry guys, Reyvadin MURDEROPOLIS is part of the MURDERLAND amustment park construction project.  Like I said before, I'm building hotels.  Deal with it.

[Garem]

I did ask for everything back. Remember that conversation? I specifically asked you to throw the fight. It was when I learned that the cancel fight mechanic doesn't just let you off with 25% troop loss- you lose all troops. You corrected my misunderstanding of how that worked. This conversation took place and either you forgot about it or you're not telling the truth.

We DID notify you ahead of time, wasn't that the point of the original arrangement? Then the borders got closed, then opened... did you want us to tell you every single caravan? What exactly is a big order? He wasn't a particularly big caravan. He was told to wait so we could figure out what the hell the new terms meant, sure, but he didn't wait because he's new to Strategus. He was attacked immediately anyways.

You did give part of the goods back- hence I mentioned the 60%. That's highballing, since that's not accounting for the hundreds of troops we lost on both occasions.

We apologized because we didn't have a choice. We wanted our stuff back and we had no clue what to expect- we needed to recover as much as possible, minimize losses. We may not have been innocent, yes Vengt made a mistake. But you'd attacked us twice, for God's sake.

We got tired of not having any idea what to expect from you. As you've admitted, and your RP post made very clear, KUTT is terribly disorganized. It's hard to work with someone when you never know where they're coming from. In your own words in the other thread (and I disagree, as a note), "KUTT deserves to get wiped". As I said before, you can't say we didn't try to make it work.

Put yourself in our shoes for a minute here.

-We never attacked KUTT accidentally. You can't say that.
-We had very specific requests- an open trade route. Instead of clarifying issues, you attacked, admittedly sold part of our goods, and kept us in the dark. I still don't have a clue what a "large caravan" is in your book. I just shut down the route because you couldn't figure it out.
-We had no reliable roster support. We've been asking our own people to sign up for KUTT, but continue to have to go to KUTT's TS just to ask for more.

We could no longer afford to share your problems at our own expense, and we had no deals entitling you to that help any longer.

*Garem shrugs his shoulders and gives a well-wishing thumbs up.*

[TugBoat]

I did ask for everything back. Remember that conversation? I specifically asked you to throw the fight. It was when I learned that the cancel fight mechanic doesn't just let you off with 25% troop loss- you lose all troops. You corrected my misunderstanding of how that worked. This conversation took place and either you forgot about it or you're not telling the truth.

We DID notify you ahead of time, wasn't that the point of the original arrangement? Then the borders got closed, then opened... did you want us to tell you every single caravan? What exactly is a big order? He wasn't a particularly big caravan. He was told to wait so we could figure out what the hell the new terms meant, sure, but he didn't wait because he's new to Strategus. He was attacked immediately anyways.

You did give part of the goods back- hence I mentioned the 60%. That's highballing, since that's not accounting for the hundreds of troops we lost on both occasions.

We apologized because we didn't have a choice. We wanted our stuff back and we had no clue what to expect- we needed to recover as much as possible, minimize losses. We may not have been innocent, yes Vengt made a mistake. But you'd attacked us twice, for God's sake.

We got tired of not having any idea what to expect from you. As you've admitted, and your RP post made very clear, KUTT is terribly disorganized. It's hard to work with someone when you never know where they're coming from. In your own words in the other thread (and I disagree, as a note), "KUTT deserves to get wiped". As I said before, you can't say we didn't try to make it work.

Put yourself in our shoes for a minute here.

-We never attacked KUTT accidentally. You can't say that.
-We had very specific requests- an open trade route. Instead of clarifying issues, you attacked, admittedly sold part of our goods, and kept us in the dark. I still don't have a clue what a "large caravan" is in your book. I just shut down the route because you couldn't figure it out.
-We had no reliable roster support. We've been asking our own people to sign up for KUTT, but continue to have to go to KUTT's TS just to ask for more.

We could no longer afford to share your problems at our own expense, and we had no deals entitling you to that help any longer.

*Garem shrugs his shoulders and gives a well-wishing thumbs up.*

I seriously wish I had the power to revoke the speaking privileges of people for the sole purpose of being completely ignorant. If you want to attack us, just own up to it and say that you're doing so because your'e pathetic cowards who couldn't win a fight if we weren't getting stomped all over by FCC. I hope FCC wipes you all out when they're done messing with us, or you better hope that you and FCC finish the job because when it's all over BOAT clan is coming for the Fallen weaklings.

[Garem]

Yikes. Ad hominem much?

You weren't present for aforementioned conversation. You're pretending to know things that you don't (and can't), and without a hint of irony accusing someone else of ignorance.

In fact, as far as Fallen is aware, you play no part in diplomatic relations whatsoever. Everything comes and goes through Tanken. Whatever you hear has already been filtered into an appropriate paradigm.

[Warcat]

Our topic about this war is already way ahead of this one in post count, just the first victory for us of many in this war.

[Tanken]

I've just got to say this Garem, you guys are wrong about the way you are going about this war.

However you want to beat around the bush, or turn this like it is on us, is entirely a mislabel on what this war is actually about. You see opportunity to strike, and join a winning side, instead of stand up for people who have been helpful to you. Casted votes for your establishments to get settled, was happy to have you nestled in as neighbors, and tried our best to be fair. The AdalWulf incident can best be explained by Tugboat, but it is something that you guys were informed of what the mistake was and no further discussion was made about it. So bringing that up as a means for war is just searching small instances for a chance to turn them into something bigger.

That's like me telling you I'm going to beat you up because you ate Grade B eggs for breakfast three months ago. It's stupid.

The attack on Vengst, as you said, was your fault. I clearly stated (and I've said this plenty of times) that you guys need to inform us exactly when and how much goods you'll be bringing in. That could be interpreted as 1 crate, all the way up to 10,000. All you had to do was ask. But you and your leadership and Vengst failed to. Even in an attempt to get it remedied before any of our precious S&D was lost when we needed it most, we reached out. You guys didn't answer.

So please, stop saying it is our fault.

We have repaid what we've been able to, and movements were in order to repay the rest. You guys gave me your word that I would see Dutchy at least to Reyvadin, and only when you realize he carries a lot of goods, do you reneg on this deal, declare war, and attack him.


Cowards, liars, and the epitome of what you can come to expect of trustworthy people on the Internet and this game.



Good day sir.

[Garem]

However you want to beat around the bush, or turn this like it is on us, is entirely a mislabel on what this war is actually about. You see opportunity to strike, and join a winning side, instead of stand up for people who have been helpful to you.

Helpful is a subjective standard. I never said you weren't helpful, but not all the time, and the quality of that help has dropped to downright unhelpful. Your faction is a mess. You're a net loss for us, a liability. We can't afford for you to keep being a problem for us any longer. Things change.

Casted votes for your establishments to get settled, was happy to have you nestled in as neighbors, and tried our best to be fair. The AdalWulf incident can best be explained by Tugboat, but it is something that you guys were informed of what the mistake was and no further discussion was made about it. So bringing that up as a means for war is just searching small instances for a chance to turn them into something bigger.

Lack of discussion doesn't mean it's a non-issue. It means that we didn't discuss it. It was merely a case we didn't press because we had hoped our ceding the point would lead to better benefits down the road. We were wrong. Those benefits never manifest themselves in any serious way.

That's like me telling you I'm going to beat you up because you ate Grade B eggs for breakfast three months ago. It's stupid.

So we were supposed to forget that you pissed in our cornflakes? "It's stupid" because it's happening to you. You thought you were a wonderful friend. Surprise! You weren't.

The attack on Vengst, as you said, was your fault. I clearly stated (and I've said this plenty of times) that you guys need to inform us exactly when and how much goods you'll be bringing in. That could be interpreted as 1 crate, all the way up to 10,000. All you had to do was ask. But you and your leadership and Vengst failed to. Even in an attempt to get it remedied before any of our precious S&D was lost when we needed it most, we reached out. You guys didn't answer.

So please, stop saying it is our fault.

We are reasonable. We admitted partial fault in that Vengt left early from his "hold" because things were confusing. But just because one aspect of it was our fault doesn't make it entirely so. Under your logic, someone accidentally stepping onto your front lawn gives you full rights to blow their head off with a shotgun. It's only more sour for the headless man when he thinks he was going to be invited over for dinner sometime soon.

Moreover, you're only re-stating the confusion of these new "warn us on trades" terms. Now a "big trade" is 1 to 10,000? What? That wasn't even the deal you had posted. You said "big trades" then, and argue "any trades" now.

Lastly, you never lost anything on those attacks on AdalWulf or Vengt. You always just took what we had paid for. You never even lost troops- we never signed up against you. You returned 60% of Vengt's stuff, sure. Where's the other 40%? We were still waiting for days, and your excuses were only piling up. Where are the troops that we lost? We ate that cost to help you. I said it once, I'll say it again- you can't say we didn't try to work with you.

We have repaid what we've been able to, and movements were in order to repay the rest. You guys gave me your word that I would see Dutchy at least to Reyvadin, and only when you realize he carries a lot of goods, do you reneg on this deal, declare war, and attack him.

Now this isn't true. We never promised we wouldn't attack Dutchy, you just told us that he was coming. You trusted us, and we betrayed that trust. We also trusted you at one point. We'd been betrayed before, too. Those little agreements that never seemed to work out. Sucks, doesn't it?

Good day sir.

Et tu, Brute.

[Aderyn]

Don't worry about lordark guys, we're on it.

[TugBoat]

Fallen just better hope FCC doesn't do a nonaggression pact for any length of time or I'll march my army on you before the week is up.

[Tanken]

Words

Literally, everything falling out of your mouth, is bullshit and I know you know it too.


You literally just came to get your goods back, and I literally just told you about this maybe 3 days ago? I told you we would be delivering trade goods to you when we were able, and you pressed it no further. Either you Fallen guys are looking for a pretense for war (very sad I may add) or you're some really passive aggressive knaves about all of this.

And yes, you did give Dutchy clearance to enter and get through your land safely. God, why didn't I save the long of my talk with you and SmilingDaemon. Daemon clearly stated that Dutchy could pass safely through the lands. He barely made it to your first fief before you low-lifes kicked him out and attacked him.


Keep quoting my posts, keep responding to individual things in them Garem, but seriously. Come clean and own up to what you've done. You're declaring war for no other reason than to be greedy and pulling shit out of your ass to say it's reasoning. If it was reasoning, and you guys are so high and mighty on Diplomacy, why the hell didn't any of you come and talk to me about it? Sounds like some pussy stuff right there, Garem.

[Warcat]

You're declaring war for no other reason than to be greedy and pulling shit out of your ass to say it's reasoning.

We're doing it for the Kittens of Zagush, there can be no greater reason!

[Garem]

60% is what I got back for Vengt, stated directly, already discussed. You stated yourself that you were unable to pay the rest and were losing the war. We weren't going to get the rest back and you damned well know it too, even if you wanted to. Well wishing us after the series of unfortunate events, of which you were the proximate cause, doesn't cut it, sorry. We had lost and stood to continue losing. NA Fallen isn't exactly a powerhouse, those losses mattered to us.

We never promised anything in regards to safe passage. You told us he was coming, we promised nothing. This war was already on the table for us, Dutchy just fell into our hands because you gave him to us. This wasn't a random decision to attack. It was cold, I'm not denying that, but it was calculated based upon all the aforementioned claims and issues raised. We're acting in self-interest because that's the world we live in. We're not going to keep up our already-borderline-amicable-and-continually-deteriorating relations with a sinking ship commanded by an unpredictable captain.

What we practice is Realpolitik. This is nothing new. Power has shifted, and now we have the opportunity to recoup the losses that we couldn't afford to take that you imposed upon us.

You can make all the excuses and lay all the blame you want. I haven't denied any of it on our part. But if you seriously think you can get away with deflecting all that you're to blame for with your "woe is me", that's not going to kutt it. I'm not interested in pitying you, and I'm becoming irked that you seem to enjoy lavashing in it so. You're not innocent here, either.

We made accidental mistakes (Vengt not following orders, AdalWulf not understanding your definition of a "claim"). Yours were deliberate misdeeds- attacking both and asking questions later, repaying a mere 60% of goods and no troops at all to Vengt and yielding no patience to AdalWulf.

You reap what you sow. That you didn't see it coming because you were blind to your own misdeeds by just sweeping it under the rug isn't my fault.

[Tanken]

I'm not saying I'm innocent Garem. And I would always stick to my word about refunding what was lost of yours. Your fail attempts at being diplomatic are obviously not good. All you had to do was come and talk to us, but you didn't. We've been fair about everything, and yes, you did give Dutchy safe passage. Stop saying you didn't. We wouldn't have chose that route if not for the fact Daemon gave safe passage.

You guys, like I said, and was told before, just can't be trusted. It's quite obvious. I've given you my arguments, and shown your lies, anything from here on out would just be beating a dead horse.