Author Topic: 豚 聖戦 [Buta Seisen]  (Read 18657 times)

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Offline Braeden

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Re: 豚 聖戦 [Buta Seisen]
« Reply #150 on: October 03, 2012, 08:12:35 pm »
+3
Tell us more about how you disobey your leader please.
Yes, what kind of faction could abide such a lack of following orders?

Offline Matey

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Re: 豚 聖戦 [Buta Seisen]
« Reply #151 on: October 03, 2012, 08:56:42 pm »
+6
Please refer to this thread http://forum.meleegaming.com/diplomacy/fcc-mercanary-policy/new/#new which i recently bumped since people seem to be confused about it. FCC is aware that some people are going to get butt hurt when they see FCC members against them, and we accept that. We are prioritizing fun over "good" diplomacy. if we prioritized "good" diplomacy then most of our members would already have gotten bored and quit because we would have allied with 90% of the NA factions and stayed out of almost every battle that has happened so far. Despite what some people think, it is actually a lot easier in strat to ally everyone and have nice happy peace time than it is to stay independent.  But the FCC decided to prioritize fun and as a result we are seen as being "bad" diplomats. So as mentioned in the thread I linked... feel free to get butthurt about how we merc and then yell at us about it, but that will probably just inspire more of our members to want to sign up against you, so you might be better served in just shrugging it off and asking some of our members to fight for you instead. Either way, we aren't changing this policy because it is by far the most popular policy we have ever implemented in the clan EVER.

Offline CrazyCracka420

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Re: 豚 聖戦 [Buta Seisen]
« Reply #152 on: October 03, 2012, 09:15:35 pm »
+1
I really want to post the cartman "Whatuva, I do what I want" picture, as I feel it's 100% relevant to Krec's posts, but I feel that would prob get me muted at this point.  Even though nobody else is following the diplomacy rules, and I even went and reported people in the Hospitaller allying with KUTT thread (which they didn't get punished for).  The only time people are getting punished is for posting pictures in diplomacy...all the other bullshit, one liners, shit talking, etc, is okay apparently.  The only rule they enforce for diplomacy section is the posting pictures it seems.
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Offline Canary

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Re: 豚 聖戦 [Buta Seisen]
« Reply #153 on: October 03, 2012, 09:15:51 pm »
+3
Fighting for whoever offers you the most coin makes you a mercenary (aka sellsword) it's not the actions of a soldier affiliated with a faction.

If your faction has no official relations to the side you're fighting for or against then you are in the fight for purely mercenary reasons, with very few exceptions.

Letting your faction members sign up for whoever they want, also makes you highly unorganized, and seems counter-productive.  Either you are working towards a goal of bettering your faction, or you're not.

This is assuming the outcome of the battle has a direct impact on the faction of every single merc fighting in it. Well, in the long run we've seen some instances where, yes, mercenaries signing for someone have influenced diplomatic relations, but in almost every circumstance it's due to a reaction based entirely on presumption of intent or some construed insult to sensibility, not the actual outcome itself.

If a faction is neutral and has expressed interest in staying neutral then is it really reasonable to flip out on them for signing en masse against you? That, too, is counter-productive, because that will just guarantee them continuing to sign against you and quite possibly bringing their own resources to bear against you.

At some point personal gain has to be considered, and it's completely unreasonable to expect people not to sign up for any strat battles unless it's against an enemy, especially now that the AI faction is gone. Assigning factions to sign up for on a case-by-case basis is not neutrality by definition, even for the factions that do care about every person who is mercing against them.

Would be interesting how YOUR faction leader sees this...
Tell us more about how you disobey your leader please.

We once had a fight over your putting words in my mouth.  Well, I still don't like it.

You are missing the point. Mercing for one faction against another IS a major act that adversely affects relations - if the signing up on one side is because it has been left open to the members or planned does not matter. A faction leader that cares about diplomacy will need to control that.

This depends entirely on the other factions involved. "Need" therefore is a strong word to use. It won't always have an adverse effect on relations. Also, a faction leader that cares about his members getting to fight battles would need to realize that in many situations playing into the diplomacy of roster-checks potentially removes a lot of the interest they'll have in the game, and denies them personal rewards as well.

If I don't like the person he wants me to sign for I decline to fight period. Simple as that.

This, realistically, is the extent of what someone could reasonably ask for when trying to accommodate the feelings of a memberbase who develops their own opinions independent of clan dictation. You can't make someone play the game when they don't want to.

The nature of Strategus sometimes requires a player to fight their friends, but they may still choose not to do so. It may not be the ideal situation for the faction they belong to, but for a faction, particularly an unassociated faction to ask a player to kill their friend can be cruel. If a clan asks someone to swap to the other side of a roster, there's more to consider than just diplomacy. Trying to keep people from playing the game is also bad form, it's better to use incentive - which is just what LLJK is doing.



The end of it is that there are some factions who truly care who is on their enemy's merc roster, and there are some that do not see the fault in having to fight members of whichever faction, and by that token allow their members to sign up as they see fit (and usually only to a certain point). It is very obvious how these two methodologies would clash and cause issues, but that doesn't make one a universal law. To force your beliefs on another in this way is the equivalent of trying to start a holy war. It inevitably will result in conflict either way, I guess.

Calradian religions? There's an idea.

Recklessness - members have freedom to sign where they will during times of neutrality and aren't forced to sign onto rosters against their will. Individuals are given personal responsibility for their signups.
and Formalism - a more rigid system of beliefs where the utmost reverence is paid to the results of a roster sheet. To place yourself onto one side is a declaration of intent that speaks beyond the individual.

There are merits and roleplay potentials for both...!

Offline dynamike

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Re: 豚 聖戦 [Buta Seisen]
« Reply #154 on: October 03, 2012, 09:17:18 pm »
+1
Please refer to this thread http://forum.meleegaming.com/diplomacy/fcc-mercanary-policy/new/#new which i recently bumped since people seem to be confused about it. FCC is aware that some people are going to get butt hurt when they see FCC members against them, and we accept that. We are prioritizing fun over "good" diplomacy. if we prioritized "good" diplomacy then most of our members would already have gotten bored and quit because we would have allied with 90% of the NA factions and stayed out of almost every battle that has happened so far. Despite what some people think, it is actually a lot easier in strat to ally everyone and have nice happy peace time than it is to stay independent.  But the FCC decided to prioritize fun and as a result we are seen as being "bad" diplomats. So as mentioned in the thread I linked... feel free to get butthurt about how we merc and then yell at us about it, but that will probably just inspire more of our members to want to sign up against you, so you might be better served in just shrugging it off and asking some of our members to fight for you instead. Either way, we aren't changing this policy because it is by far the most popular policy we have ever implemented in the clan EVER.

See, now here's a clear statement, including acknowledging the consequences.

I respect that.



Well, I still don't like it.

And I still really care what you think  :rolleyes:
« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 09:22:41 pm by dynamike »
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Offline Spanish

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Re: 豚 聖戦 [Buta Seisen]
« Reply #155 on: October 03, 2012, 09:22:59 pm »
+2
I stand by my point. I dislike hospitallers so I personally signed up against them. Everyone else has their own reasons as well. This was not a faction provoking a war, merely individuals looking for a fair, fun and even fight.
It's okay guys excuse krec he has hard time getting over his love for me and other hosps and will eventually be brainwashed joining our righteous cause.

And I think kesh is right no one should be offended by the FCC when they fight on the other side because they are most likely still helping you win ;P

But this serous business and having a group or even a hero such as myself fight a clan that they are allied to may send the wrong message especially if you're leading the scoreboard and causing the most destruction and what not. I personally did not like fighting allies especially when it's a group and they fight well as a unit and make up the top 5 on the scoreboard. Always made me think how much gear and tickets would have been saved if they had just fought for us instead.
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Offline ednos

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Re: 豚 聖戦 [Buta Seisen]
« Reply #156 on: October 03, 2012, 09:28:58 pm »
+3
I generally sign up for whoever I want unless there is some sort of alliance in place. That being said, you could see how the WHOLE faction signing up for one side could me misconstrued.

Or it could be that they like playing together, because, hey, look, they all joined the same faction. When one of mine signs up for a battle, before anyone else signs up, they ask which side they applied for, because playing together is fun. I'm pretty sure the only time a fight that doesn't include us or our allies (of which we have none) won't result in this sort of behavior is if KUTT is involved, in which case SWF would obviously sign up to fight for KUTT against anyone else who dare defy their manifest destiny.

And I think kesh is right no one should be offended by the FCC when they fight on the other side because they are most likely still helping you win ;P

On this note, SWF is offering to fight for your enemies, for a fee, given our members' performance thus far. You will have the opportunity to choose the Bronze (1:10), Silver (1:20), or Gold (1:30) KDR packages (which map directly to certain members fighting at their best). Additionally, pending availability of one member in particular, the Platinum (0) KDR package may suit you best, but it will cost you.
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Offline oprah_winfrey

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Re: 豚 聖戦 [Buta Seisen]
« Reply #157 on: October 03, 2012, 09:40:37 pm »
+1
Or it could be that they like playing together, because, hey, look, they all joined the same faction. When one of mine signs up for a battle, before anyone else signs up, they ask which side they applied for, because playing together is fun. I'm pretty sure the only time a fight that doesn't include us or our allies (of which we have none) won't result in this sort of behavior is if KUTT is involved, in which case SWF would obviously sign up to fight for KUTT against anyone else who dare defy their manifest destiny.

misconstrue [ˌmɪskənˈstruː]
vb -strues, -struing, -strued
(tr) to interpret mistakenly

Offline Kreczor

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Re: 豚 聖戦 [Buta Seisen]
« Reply #158 on: October 03, 2012, 09:52:23 pm »
+1
It's okay guys excuse krec he has hard time getting over his love for me and other hosps and will eventually be brainwashed joining our righteous cause.

.... fuck you caught me I love valdian and spaniard and porksword and.... there's a lot of cool hosps god damnit :(

Where do I submit my app?
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Offline ednos

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Re: 豚 聖戦 [Buta Seisen]
« Reply #159 on: October 03, 2012, 09:53:11 pm »
0
misconstrue [ˌmɪskənˈstruː]
vb -strues, -struing, -strued
(tr) to interpret mistakenly

I was addressing the same people as were misconstruing the actions, and referring to your quote. It's apparent that the Josho Shogunate categorically defines that behavior as threatening, as you suggested, and I merely added the alternate viewpoint (which happens to be my own), which has not yet been represented.
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Offline Gmnotutoo

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Re: 豚 聖戦 [Buta Seisen]
« Reply #160 on: October 03, 2012, 10:10:52 pm »
+3
(Removed the quotes from others to show I'm not talking directly to anyone, but to make it a more general message for everyone.)
Let me quote Kalam, who gives a wonderfully accurate description of our role within strat.
The Call for Blood
...
 Soured by the vitriol in the hearts of both sides, the war took a turn for the worst. We had become men who didn't care for lofty ideas like honor, glory, and justice. We became men who only cared for blood- and the gods didn't protect the innocents who came between us and blood.
...

What is this sentence saying to all of you? For I can sum it up into one word: Warmongers. It seems with our departure in the Great Third War, many of you have forgotten what it was like to deal with the Free Companies of Calradia. We love battles! We love arguing! We love wars and attractive ladies (some like teh men). In the Great Second War we only had the first three days of peace and everyday after we were at war against many different Factions as well as Coalitions against us. Friends became enemies and enemies became friends in a chaotic flux that we didn't really care to understand, but accepted with glee. Our clan is leaderless so there is no single person in charge, but we naturally follow certain figureheads. We all come up with a plan of action together with everyone getting equal say and this is how we operate.

To quell are blood-thirst we have allowed any member to sign up for any faction and for any reason they desire, it is up to all of you to decide if recruiting our mercenaries is worth it or not. Do not judge our decisions because you disagree. If you were in our clan then you'd have an equal say just like every other member and could question this policy, because we actually consider the desires of our brethren first instead of worrying about everyone's feelings. We also completely understand this is not a favorable policy, but we allow it anyway. If you dislike it so much you that you wish war, well I'm sorry that it was taken personally but I'll see them on the battlefield and I hope we all obtain entry into Valhalla.

I'll be nice and explain rationally how other people get us to merc for them, it is pretty simple and only requires two things:
1. Don't treat the people you wish to recruit like donkey-poo.
2. If you're unable to abide the first step, then pay lots of gold.

We know this Great War will end at a random time, but a new one will spring up soon and honestly the only thing that really matters throughout all of this is the battles that took place. We don't want to say we didn't participate in this particular battle because some faction we barely knew felt threatened by it.


Edit: We will become complete soon, for Kalam will rejoin us. PRAISE BE TO THE GLORIOUS KALAM!!!!!!
« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 10:23:37 pm by Gmnotutoo »
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Offline Keshian

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Re: 豚 聖戦 [Buta Seisen]
« Reply #161 on: October 03, 2012, 10:13:54 pm »
0
THIS x1000 (up arrow).

Also, that is a great sales pitch for joining the FCC - we are actively recruiting members and clans.
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Offline Lt_Anders

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Re: 豚 聖戦 [Buta Seisen]
« Reply #162 on: October 03, 2012, 10:59:36 pm »
+1
Please refer to this thread http://forum.meleegaming.com/diplomacy/fcc-mercanary-policy/new/#new which i recently bumped since people seem to be confused about it. FCC is aware that some people are going to get butt hurt when they see FCC members against them, and we accept that. We are prioritizing fun over "good" diplomacy. if we prioritized "good" diplomacy then most of our members would already have gotten bored and quit because we would have allied with 90% of the NA factions and stayed out of almost every battle that has happened so far. Despite what some people think, it is actually a lot easier in strat to ally everyone and have nice happy peace time than it is to stay independent.  But the FCC decided to prioritize fun and as a result we are seen as being "bad" diplomats. So as mentioned in the thread I linked... feel free to get butthurt about how we merc and then yell at us about it, but that will probably just inspire more of our members to want to sign up against you, so you might be better served in just shrugging it off and asking some of our members to fight for you instead. Either way, we aren't changing this policy because it is by far the most popular policy we have ever implemented in the clan EVER.

As much as I like this, I actively went to your TS to get mercs for a battle as a go between for another faction and Kesh told me straight up: Sorry we aren't going to put people against this faction A cause we are friends. Guess what, 6 FCC signed for the Faction A side while 1 signed up for the Faction B side but did not show up.

Based on this experience, your "merc policy" is not as "Free" as you would wish. You STILL put Diplomacy behind who you merc for over fun.

Now as for mercing in general. If you have a large portion of your clan fight for 1 side or another(by large i'll use TKOV for the example. 80 members, if 10 sign up against someone, that is a large chunk of their member base and should be constituted as a hostile action), I see no reason WHY you shouldn't consider that a hostile intent.(since roster sizes cap out at 55 i think, 1/5 of a roster being of a single clan is hostile intent)
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Offline ednos

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Re: 豚 聖戦 [Buta Seisen]
« Reply #163 on: October 03, 2012, 11:09:16 pm »
0
As much as I like this, I actively went to your TS to get mercs for a battle as a go between for another faction and Kesh told me straight up: Sorry we aren't going to put people against this faction A cause we are friends.

Even if FCC isn't actually neutral, others may be.

6 FCC signed for the Faction A side while 1 signed up for the Faction B side but did not show up.

This behavior corresponds to both allied and completely neutral behavior.

Now as for mercing in general. If you have a large portion of your clan fight for 1 side or another(by large i'll use TKOV for the example. 80 members, if 10 sign up against someone, that is a large chunk of their member base and should be constituted as a hostile action), I see no reason WHY you shouldn't consider that a hostile intent.(since roster sizes cap out at 55 i think, 1/5 of a roster being of a single clan is hostile intent)

First of all, you can't interpret "portion of the roster" at all. That will vary with faction size, and the mercenaries have no control over that. All your number means is that TKoV players are highly valued fighters.

Secondly, you don't actually know if they signed up for only one side or not. Sometimes they sign up for both, but the one who cares more, or spends more of their time at work browsing the cRPG website, will get more people who sign up for both sides.
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Offline Spanish

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Re: 豚 聖戦 [Buta Seisen]
« Reply #164 on: October 03, 2012, 11:34:17 pm »
+1
All I know is that fighting for which ever side is blasphemous and as such these heretics deserve to burn with their filthy ways. Bunch of heathens allowing members to choose which side they fight for what do you think this is, America?
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