Author Topic: 豚 聖戦 [Buta Seisen]  (Read 19448 times)

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Offline CrazyCracka420

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Re: 豚 聖戦 [Buta Seisen]
« Reply #135 on: October 03, 2012, 04:39:41 pm »
+2
jesus, this group of weeaboo is worse then the last we gave an ass kicking too

and they were euros so that's saying something

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Offline dynamike

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Re: 豚 聖戦 [Buta Seisen]
« Reply #136 on: October 03, 2012, 04:48:54 pm »
0
You are making some good points, Kesh. However, this

we explained that leadership in FCC does not tell faction members who they should or should not merc for.

is not how clan diplomacy works. If you want to be on the friendly side of a clan you don't have your members sign up against them and if not, the other way around.

In general saying "sorry, all our members signed up on the wrong side of the battle because we didn't tell them not to - but that means we can still be friends, right?" is not going to work out.

Not that you seem to want to be friends in this case anyway  :wink:
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Offline LordBerenger

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Re: 豚 聖戦 [Buta Seisen]
« Reply #137 on: October 03, 2012, 05:32:37 pm »
0
You are making some good points, Kesh. However, this

is not how clan diplomacy works. If you want to be on the friendly side of a clan you don't have your members sign up against them and if not, the other way around.

In general saying "sorry, all our members signed up on the wrong side of the battle because we didn't tell them not to - but that means we can still be friends, right?" is not going to work out.

Not that you seem to want to be friends in this case anyway  :wink:

Dynamike obviously hates goons. YOU'RE NO LONGER DYNAMITE MIKE!
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Offline Kreczor

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Re: 豚 聖戦 [Buta Seisen]
« Reply #138 on: October 03, 2012, 05:53:23 pm »
+1
You are making some good points, Kesh. However, this

is not how clan diplomacy works. If you want to be on the friendly side of a clan you don't have your members sign up against them and if not, the other way around.

In general saying "sorry, all our members signed up on the wrong side of the battle because we didn't tell them not to - but that means we can still be friends, right?" is not going to work out.

Not that you seem to want to be friends in this case anyway  :wink:
So a clan should demand that all their members be distributed fairly on either side of the battle? Until the faction itself makes a proclamation stating they are going to war, individuals damn right have the freedom to sign for either side. Take it as you want but you're reading too much into the ideas of individuals.
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Re: 豚 聖戦 [Buta Seisen]
« Reply #139 on: October 03, 2012, 06:02:29 pm »
0
So a clan should demand that all their members be distributed fairly on either side of the battle? Until the faction itself makes a proclamation stating they are going to war, individuals damn right have the freedom to sign for either side. Take it as you want but you're reading too much into the ideas of individuals.

Rinyar Castle.

Offline Tears of Destiny

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Re: 豚 聖戦 [Buta Seisen]
« Reply #140 on: October 03, 2012, 06:23:01 pm »
+4
So a clan should demand that all their members be distributed fairly on either side of the battle? Until the faction itself makes a proclamation stating they are going to war, individuals damn right have the freedom to sign for either side. Take it as you want but you're reading too much into the ideas of individuals.


Having a faction claim that they are friendly but allowing their heavy-hitters sign up against you and claim zero-responsibility is poor diplomacy no matter how you choose to look at it, as it is a detriment to your faction via the actions of their members. If a faction is neutral then of course members signing up for whom they please is natural, but if a faction is trying to be friendly (or allied) with another then you better have no members signing up against. Anything els is a lack of competence and control by the leadership involved, making said faction a liability.
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Offline dynamike

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Re: 豚 聖戦 [Buta Seisen]
« Reply #141 on: October 03, 2012, 06:49:40 pm »
+1
Dynamike obviously hates goons. YOU'RE NO LONGER DYNAMITE MIKE!

I love my (friendly) goons, but I like to play the game too  :wink:


So a clan should demand that all their members be distributed fairly on either side of the battle?

Yes, or better yet not let them sign up at all. Welcome to diplomacy, young grasshopper.
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Offline ednos

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Re: 豚 聖戦 [Buta Seisen]
« Reply #142 on: October 03, 2012, 07:21:56 pm »
+3
If a faction is neutral then of course members signing up for whom they please is natural, but if a faction is trying to be friendly (or allied) with another then you better have no members signing up against. Anything els is a lack of competence and control by the leadership involved, making said faction a liability.

That would be true if playing in a Strategus battle wasn't primarily about the personal benefits--namely, tons of fun, and loads of experience so you can retire fifteen times and get those masterwork smoke bombs you wanted so much.

It might be more important if you think the FCC birds are so much more talented than anyone else who fights that they are measured on a different scale, but that's an unreasonable approach to diplomacy, and most of them do, actually, die sometimes. I've seen it myself. In that case, though, you can't make the categorical claim that factions need to control their members when they're "friendly" (whatever the hell that means) with another faction, and you're picking on FCC.

In the case of an explicit public alliance, factions are essentially fighting as one faction, so it would make sense for the members of each faction only to sign up for their own side, but you should not assume that, "We do not hate you," means, "We will always fight for you and not your enemies."

(This is all completely restricted to mercenaries; obviously sending troops or goods or gold to the enemy would constitute aid.)
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Offline Kreczor

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Re: 豚 聖戦 [Buta Seisen]
« Reply #143 on: October 03, 2012, 07:27:15 pm »
+2
Rinyar Castle.
I stand by my point. I dislike hospitallers so I personally signed up against them. Everyone else has their own reasons as well. This was not a faction provoking a war, merely individuals looking for a fair, fun and even fight. I can't speak for the reasons behind the actions of others, but those are mine.


Having a faction claim that they are friendly but allowing their heavy-hitters sign up against you and claim zero-responsibility is poor diplomacy no matter how you choose to look at it, as it is a detriment to your faction via the actions of their members. If a faction is neutral then of course members signing up for whom they please is natural, but if a faction is trying to be friendly (or allied) with another then you better have no members signing up against. Anything els is a lack of competence and control by the leadership involved, making said faction a liability.
All I've seen from FCC is looking for payment for their mercs, and flock to whoever pays better. It's as simple as that. Josho will eventually begin to think that FCC is doing it on purpose (they already do) and provoke a war because they signed up against them in force. Mercenary work is quite simple, and my point behind this is that whoever has the biggest purse gets the mercs. This isn't a breach of an alliance, neutrality or anything else. They're simply looking for coin and following the biggest pocket. This goes on an individual basis and hell, I'm not going to sign up for someone who is not paying me against willing to pay me 1000g. You'd have to be blind to say that it's a good deal to go to the free faction.

Yes, or better yet not let them sign up at all. Welcome to diplomacy, young grasshopper.
Have fun controlling the actions of (insert # of members) people. I sure as hell wouldn't follow anything you said if you forced me to sign up for someone who I dislike or who offers the least coin but hey, I guess that's why we have different views on how to lead a faction.

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Offline Keshian

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Re: 豚 聖戦 [Buta Seisen]
« Reply #144 on: October 03, 2012, 07:43:10 pm »
+2
That would be true if playing in a Strategus battle wasn't primarily about the personal benefits--namely, tons of fun, and loads of experience so you can retire fifteen times and get those masterwork smoke bombs you wanted so much.

THIS! and what kreczor just said, sums it up extremely well.

We tried over-controlling our members and it sucks for both them and us and makes the game unenjoyable as yous lowly get to the point you always fight on the same exact side every time and only for a few clans.  This mercing for our enemy makes you our enemy only became an imagined diplomatic insult in Strat 3.0.  Strat 1.0 everyone wanted the massive xp bonus and would fight for either side if it just got them in the battle as rosters were a lot easier to fill back then when battles were epic (unlike this weaker, watered-down versions of Strategus that followed transitioning more to trade/carebearing than actual epic warring).  In 2.0 it was annoying when good players from friendly factions signed up on other side, but it wasn't a declaration of war just annoying and we used to try to cajole and bribe them to join our side.

Then somewhere in 3.0 people got a little too serious and it became an act of war for some overly sensitive clans (see thread on Nords attacking SOA recently for having 3 of them merc agaisnt them in 1 fight).

FCC has and always will be about having fun as a loose collection of highly individualistic players and clans who have a lot of freedom to do their own thing while in our faction as long as its not major acts like attacking or raiding someone or stealing S&D or anything else on the Strategus map that adversely affects our relations with others.  Its the Strategus map that is the diplomatic relations connection not what happens on NA 3.

And I am mercing on my own for PhantomZero because I like the guy, he asked me nicely, and he has helped me out in the same capacity repeatedly in the past.  It has nothing to do with my faction's diplomatic relations with anyone, just my own personal relations with zero.  SO go ahead and over-dramatize it if you want, but we have no animosity to either side (the whole hating weeaboo thing was me trying to be funny, I actually am completely ambivalent).
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Offline dynamike

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Re: 豚 聖戦 [Buta Seisen]
« Reply #145 on: October 03, 2012, 08:01:22 pm »
-3
Have fun controlling the actions of (insert # of members) people. I sure as hell wouldn't follow anything you said if you forced me to sign up for someone who I dislike or who offers the least coin but hey, I guess that's why we have different views on how to lead a faction.

Would be interesting how YOUR faction leader sees this...


as long as its not major acts like attacking or raiding someone or stealing S&D or anything else on the Strategus map that adversely affects our relations with others.

You are missing the point. Mercing for one faction against another IS a major act that adversely affects relations - if the signing up on one side is because it has been left open to the members or planned does not matter. A faction leader that cares about diplomacy will need to control that.


Don't get me wrong, I don't mind it either way, I like the battles and fighting good people. Just advising how I've seen diplomacy working in Strat.
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Offline CrazyCracka420

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Re: 豚 聖戦 [Buta Seisen]
« Reply #146 on: October 03, 2012, 08:06:31 pm »
0
Fighting for whoever offers you the most coin makes you a mercenary (aka sellsword) it's not the actions of a soldier affiliated with a faction.  Letting your faction members sign up for whoever they want, also makes you highly unorganized, and seems counter-productive.  Either you are working towards a goal of bettering your faction, or you're not. 
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Offline oprah_winfrey

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Re: 豚 聖戦 [Buta Seisen]
« Reply #147 on: October 03, 2012, 08:07:27 pm »
+3
I generally sign up for whoever I want unless there is some sort of alliance in place. That being said, you could see how the WHOLE faction signing up for one side could me misconstrued.

Offline Kreczor

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Re: 豚 聖戦 [Buta Seisen]
« Reply #148 on: October 03, 2012, 08:07:50 pm »
+2
Would be interesting how YOUR faction leader sees this...
If I don't like the person he wants me to sign for I decline to fight period. Simple as that.
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Offline dynamike

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Re: 豚 聖戦 [Buta Seisen]
« Reply #149 on: October 03, 2012, 08:09:53 pm »
0
If I don't like the person he wants me to sign for I decline to fight period. Simple as that.

Tell us more about how you disobey your leader please.
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