Author Topic: NA Diplomacy Announcement from the Knights Hospitaller  (Read 12886 times)

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Offline TugBoat

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Re: NA Diplomacy Announcement from the Knights Hospitaller
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2012, 08:20:33 pm »
+3
KUTT looks forward to working with our close neighbors and friends, Hospitallers in the future. I'm sorry if this upsets our other neighbors.

Offline Aderyn

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Re: NA Diplomacy Announcement from the Knights Hospitaller
« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2012, 08:49:15 pm »
-8
stop crying FCC. We are friends with KUTT, that's the end of it. Your whining isn't going to make us dissolve our friendship =)
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Re: NA Diplomacy Announcement from the Knights Hospitaller
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2012, 08:52:39 pm »
+5
stop crying FCC. We are friends with KUTT, that's the end of it. Your whining isn't going to make us dissolve our friendship =)

Acting like that ain't cool dood. They're not whining really. Due to situations in the past they have voiced concerns, that's all. All we can do is tell them otherwise and be respectful.

Offline Garem

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Re: NA Diplomacy Announcement from the Knights Hospitaller
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2012, 09:02:27 pm »
+9
Yeah like I told you before.  FCC members are 100% opposed to the idea of messing up NA the way UIF did to EU strat.  We refused to from an NA UIF with you and will always do so.  We thought you had enough integrity to do the same and keep the game fun still on the NA side.

Although I believe this post is politically motivated (and bravo to that! this is not a condemnation of such), I speak to everyone else watching this go down not to grow too concerned about what is occurring.

This is an example of a low-grade alliance; like the Allied forces of WWI (and look what Italy did!), they are by nature temporary. The UIF or Fallen+HRE are blocs, they live perpetually; it's like the Soviet bloc of the Cold War, which was locked and unshakable in their adherence to a position (at least historically and by the view of outsiders for all three game and RL examples).

Note, these are terms that I'm creating, not actual definitions, for the sake of clarity on the issue. In reality, these two words are synonymous.

These two terms in the context of cRPG, alliance and bloc, are fundamentally different in that alliances are temporary. Allow me to draw some more examples from my own experience (which most of you share). Fallen and HRE are a bloc (GK is too, more or less). DRZ and Grey are a bloc. Hospitallers and Occitan appear to be a bloc, but that relationship may be changing under Arrowaine's new EU-First strategy. LLJK and Fallen, and BRD and Fallen, and TKoV and Fallen, and even DRZ and Fallen were all alliances. These relationships all changed, the latter even turning hostile at after Strat 2.

Do not mistake alliances for blocs. Alliances can, and have, broken apart as events unfold. Let that assuage any fears of the Sky-Is-Falling Chicken Littles out there. Alliances only last as long as they are convenient to the members. Theoretically, so do blocs, but due to innumerable reasons that kind of change never occurs.

---

All that above being noted, there's certainly something to be said about the Concert Standing conundrum. If someone in the front row of a concert stands up, he has forced everyone behind him to stand as well. An alteration by an individual of little to negative value can cause a net loss for the whole. Everyone is worse off than they were when they started- comfortably seated.

In our case, comfortably separated and unbound by agreements.

This is a fundamentally flawed argument, however, as alliances are NOT a net loss. Alliances are often necessary for smaller forces to compete with a larger. Alliances bring more predictability and make the changes from expectations more interesting; as a player in the underdog faction against larger factions from day 1, it definitely has made my own experiences more enjoyable. They also allow you to fully utilize key mechanics of the game, like filling rosters and establishing full teams that can work together, and finding that ideal balance between the different archetypes of players (cav, inf, range).

I would estimate that to effectively accomplish these three things listed above requires around 80-120 active players. And, wouldn't you know, KUTT and Hospis still don't have that many combined (they're getting close though!). Anybody want to bet that they'll have to bring in outsiders to fill rosters?

That's why there are alliances, and that's not a bad thing.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2012, 09:14:31 pm by Garem »
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Offline ArysOakheart

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Re: NA Diplomacy Announcement from the Knights Hospitaller
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2012, 09:16:41 pm »
+2
What is this, a strat map for ants?!
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Re: NA Diplomacy Announcement from the Knights Hospitaller
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2012, 09:33:57 pm »
+3
44+46=90, within your 80-120 margin, Garem.  Though they will probably also be bringing in the Hospitaller vassals, I'm sure.  Which is +2 +15 +4, bringing it to 111.

But I digress.

According to who or what?

If I am wrong about the stance of the Hospitaller towards non-friendly clans in their territory, I apologize for the slander.  It may have changed in recent days, my information is, after all, a week old.

Offline CrazyCracka420

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Re: NA Diplomacy Announcement from the Knights Hospitaller
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2012, 09:40:35 pm »
0
44+46=90, within your 80-120 margin, Garem.  Though they will probably also be bringing in the Hospitaller vassals, I'm sure.  Which is +2 +15 +4, bringing it to 111.

But I digress.

If I am wrong about the stance of the Hospitaller towards non-friendly clans in their territory, I apologize for the slander.  It may have changed in recent days, my information is, after all, a week old.

Yeah nobody that I know of, uses that site.  And Lordark is more ideologically than most of the officers in the Knights Hospitaller.  At the time however, FCC had attacked us (fief and faction members) so that was most likely why FCC was attack on sight in our territory.  TKoV shouldn't be, I'm guessing he's just paranoid.  We had a TKoV guy in our lands for almost a week, and after days of trying to contact him (and informing TKoV) we attacked because he wasn't moving and was just loitering.

Also i want to thank Garem for reassuring people the sky is in fact, not falling.  The alliance is basically an open acknowledgement to the world, that hey, we are indeed friendly, we respect each other's claims, we have trading agreements, and mutual defense pacts.  If either faction decides to go nation building, it will be after discussing it with the allied faction.  And it's very possible that either side may decide not to get involved in a war of aggression.  Alliances CAN change over time, depending on what is beneficial to each party.  Only time will tell.

Think of it more like a Civilization V alliance, than a UIF strat 2/3 alliance.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2012, 10:01:48 pm by CrazyCracka420 »
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Offline HardRice

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Re: NA Diplomacy Announcement from the Knights Hospitaller
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2012, 09:59:12 pm »
0
Don't forget the 1-man army of Narwhals is worth any 5 vassal factions!!!

Plus 187 clan has 3 members.

You forget that i'm off becoming Mandible, Kesh.

So, 2(?).

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Re: NA Diplomacy Announcement from the Knights Hospitaller
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2012, 10:18:19 pm »
0
You forget that i'm off becoming Mandible, Kesh.

So, 2(?).

No one ever leaves FCC (sinister look), they just pretend to.
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Offline Tanken

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Re: NA Diplomacy Announcement from the Knights Hospitaller
« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2012, 11:23:08 pm »
+1
Glad that this agreement finally became public. We worked for weeks with both sides, and in the end Hospitallers had the more appealing offer. All we want is to ensure our claim to the snow is recognized and fulfilled and no one interferes with that. I've also noticed this Strategus Map is a little too large for the few amount of large NA clans to really sustain themselves efficiently. Of course, that may change in say 3-4 months when each fief is self-sufficient.

I am glad to have our neighbors become allies and this is not an aggressive alliance at this time. We both have mutual interest in fortifying ourselves in the event that continued wars in our lands erupt.
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Re: NA Diplomacy Announcement from the Knights Hospitaller
« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2012, 11:23:33 pm »
+3
Any negative actions taken against either faction, [sic] will be considered a slight by the other allied faction.

As such, the converse is true, and the Knights Hospitaller have, in effect, declared war on the vast and powerful SWF Empire! Prepare for war!
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Re: NA Diplomacy Announcement from the Knights Hospitaller
« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2012, 11:26:33 pm »
0
Although I believe this post is politically motivated (and bravo to that! this is not a condemnation of such), I speak to everyone else watching this go down not to grow too concerned about what is occurring.

This is an example of a low-grade alliance; like the Allied forces of WWI (and look what Italy did!), they are by nature temporary. The UIF or Fallen+HRE are blocs, they live perpetually; it's like the Soviet bloc of the Cold War, which was locked and unshakable in their adherence to a position (at least historically and by the view of outsiders for all three game and RL examples).

Note, these are terms that I'm creating, not actual definitions, for the sake of clarity on the issue. In reality, these two words are synonymous.

These two terms in the context of cRPG, alliance and bloc, are fundamentally different in that alliances are temporary. Allow me to draw some more examples from my own experience (which most of you share). Fallen and HRE are a bloc (GK is too, more or less). DRZ and Grey are a bloc. Hospitallers and Occitan appear to be a bloc, but that relationship may be changing under Arrowaine's new EU-First strategy. LLJK and Fallen, and BRD and Fallen, and TKoV and Fallen, and even DRZ and Fallen were all alliances. These relationships all changed, the latter even turning hostile at after Strat 2.

Do not mistake alliances for blocs. Alliances can, and have, broken apart as events unfold. Let that assuage any fears of the Sky-Is-Falling Chicken Littles out there. Alliances only last as long as they are convenient to the members. Theoretically, so do blocs, but due to innumerable reasons that kind of change never occurs.

---

All that above being noted, there's certainly something to be said about the Concert Standing conundrum. If someone in the front row of a concert stands up, he has forced everyone behind him to stand as well. An alteration by an individual of little to negative value can cause a net loss for the whole. Everyone is worse off than they were when they started- comfortably seated.

In our case, comfortably separated and unbound by agreements.

This is a fundamentally flawed argument, however, as alliances are NOT a net loss. Alliances are often necessary for smaller forces to compete with a larger. Alliances bring more predictability and make the changes from expectations more interesting; as a player in the underdog faction against larger factions from day 1, it definitely has made my own experiences more enjoyable. They also allow you to fully utilize key mechanics of the game, like filling rosters and establishing full teams that can work together, and finding that ideal balance between the different archetypes of players (cav, inf, range).

I would estimate that to effectively accomplish these three things listed above requires around 80-120 active players. And, wouldn't you know, KUTT and Hospis still don't have that many combined (they're getting close though!). Anybody want to bet that they'll have to bring in outsiders to fill rosters?

That's why there are alliances, and that's not a bad thing.


Much respect and a hearty +1 to that post. I'm not informed nor active enough to verify the numerical data in the cRPG world of strategus, but I do agree with the reference to the first world war.


I'd like to make a point, but I'm not sure how to do it without upsetting anyone. Well, here goes. Hospitaller and KUTT are very similar clans to me. Many people dislike both of them. They both (KUTT more prominently) are known for having heavy armour, all heirloomed ERRYTHANG, decent-good organization, and very solid builds. I speak mostly from experience outside of strategus here, but when a clan does that, they tend to be able to carry a team or at least become very noticed and visible on the battlefield. They become "those heavily armoured my old friendets" to a lot of folks. It seems only natural that they would be allied. In fact, it seems to me that this provides a great opportunity to fight both of them at once! I mean, if you dislike both clans, why would you not want the chance to try and kick both asses at once?

To me, there were alliances of a sort from day 1. On one hand, you've got the clans that are very laid-back and personable, such as CHAOS, FCC, and smaller clans such as The Pale Horsemen (former FIDLGB) and on the other hand you have clans that are less personable and more en masse, such as hospitaller and KUTT. It's only natural that these factions would stick together; they have very similar modus operandis.
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Offline Goretooth

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Re: NA Diplomacy Announcement from the Knights Hospitaller
« Reply #43 on: October 01, 2012, 11:35:48 pm »
+1
But I thought that FCC and TkoV were enemies who should be attacked on sight if seen within Hospitaller territory?
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Offline TugBoat

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Re: NA Diplomacy Announcement from the Knights Hospitaller
« Reply #44 on: October 01, 2012, 11:42:39 pm »
0
I think KUTT and particularly BOAT clan are very personable. FCC from the start was more aggressive, trying to be opportunistic and taking things, whereas everything we claimed, we did our best to bribe the owners out of them and do it on friendly peaceful terms. We are not warmongers. We prefer diplomacy and kindness to take what we want.