Author Topic: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered  (Read 13383 times)

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Offline Toldfield

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #60 on: January 08, 2011, 01:33:24 am »
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Ok.. to all those who think it is, it isn't. THE GAME IS NOT REALISTIC (gigantic fucking fullstop)

And if you want it to be realistic, maybe have the pikes snap and splinter to only be able to use them once... YOU SAY how can a horse survive 3-4 hits into a pointy iron sharp thing on the end of a wooden stick.. But how could a wooden stick survive one, let alone more impacts when a 800 to 1,000 pounds (360 to 450 kg) light horse, 1,000 to 1,200 pounds (450 to 540 kg) med wgt horse and a 1,500 to 2,000 pounds (680 to 910 kg) heavy horse, which is of course carrying around numerous amounts of horse blingage....  because if you especially take in consider the incredible amount of force created by the impact. say the horse is going 40 KILOMETERS/hour... which for you apes is 24 mph, minus the .4 of a mph.. and the weight of an average horse from each category based on those statistics above.

med horse:   11m/s (39.6km/h)   x  405kg  = 4455 N  (i think its newtons, SCHOOL WAS A LONG TIME AGO AND IM AN ELECTRICIAN NOW SO SHUSH YOU)
Light horse:   11m/s   x   495   =   495kg   = 5445 N
heavy horse:  10m/s (36km/h) x  795kg     =  7950 N (accounted for heavier horse moving slower. A light horse could go faster than 40km/h.. so no complaining you sooks.)

Actually, they could all go faster than 40km so cry less homos...

Considering my findings. if correct that is. THAT IS ALOT OF FUCKING FORCE. Even if it is reduced alot by the sharp edge and point of the spear there is still going to be a fucking shitload of resistance from the horses flesh and bones and it is going to make your toothpick on steroids snap under the strain.. and also a pike against a horse with plate... if you were to hit it in the breastplate, the shape of it would more likely make the pike be shrugged off and just pushed to the side of the horse doing minimal to no damage to the horse in reality, THATS WHAT I THINK.. notice the 'I'....
So be glad hitting it and making it stop in the first place and gtfo out of there or pull out another weapon of mass rape and bonk that horse or knight on his head.

To conclude cos i am getting tired of typing this to all you people who are as thick as a brick.. i will leave you with my wise words..

When the horse doesn't die, don't throw a fridge at a child, bake some bread in the shell of an egg instead.

Remember that boys and girls, words of pure wisdom indeed.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2011, 01:45:34 am by Toldfield »
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Offline Thomek

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #61 on: January 08, 2011, 01:48:48 am »
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Well, we don't want to be realistic.
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Offline Toldfield

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #62 on: January 08, 2011, 02:08:04 am »
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ALSO, people who want it more realistic, Your character is human, he has 1 life. Have fun
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Offline forgivers

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #63 on: January 08, 2011, 02:16:36 am »
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lmao .....
cav is ubber, score sheet prove it

maybe you are not ubber but that an other story

/close thread
Actually, it's because I love playing archer, and I like it to be special.
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Offline Storm

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #64 on: January 08, 2011, 02:28:07 am »
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Imho cavalry is in no way an easy way to play.

You're mostly target number one of the enemy team. Pikes and ranged weapons give you a hard time and a horse doesn't really take much damage except for armoured horses.

The greatest advantage is that you can catch unaware people and deal 1 hit kills with that skill.

That's mostly due to the silencer hoof though. If cavalry hoofsteps would be more louder, this whole thing could be a lot more balanced.

Offline Mattressi

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #65 on: January 08, 2011, 11:09:28 am »
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(click to show/hide)

Ignoring that your maths is wrong (you're calculating the momentum which is in N*s and you'd be better off calculating the kinetic energy unless you know the stopping distance and thus deceleration of the horse in order to find the force), no one is currently arguing realism anyway. Even so, I'd imagine that a pike would not break anyway; they were typically made of ash or similar woods which bend significantly before breakage (hence their use in some types of bows). Unless the horse managed to bend the pike considerably in order snap it, I cannot see how it would break (certainly not through compression from being landed on - the pike would sooner pierce through the entire horse before that happened). Still, I'd actually be ok with pikes breaking on use if they killed any horse one shot (can't say many cav would be ok with that though). We're not asking for pikes to one-hit a horse at any rate.

Imho cavalry is in no way an easy way to play.

You're mostly target number one of the enemy team. Pikes and ranged weapons give you a hard time and a horse doesn't really take much damage except for armoured horses.

The greatest advantage is that you can catch unaware people and deal 1 hit kills with that skill.

That's mostly due to the silencer hoof though. If cavalry hoofsteps would be more louder, this whole thing could be a lot more balanced.

I agree with the silent hooves bit, though if your avatar represents how you play, I'd say your perception is a little skewed. If you're only playing on a light horse then you'll probably feel the full wrath of horse haters (i.e. every non-cav will target you), but you'll have a horse that has significantly lower armor and health than a tank-horse and only a little more speed and manoeuvrability to help. You might have noticed that in several 'nerf cav' threads, the posters have actually been talking about nerfing the tank horses and buffing the light horses.

Offline Toldfield

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #66 on: January 08, 2011, 01:46:10 pm »
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Ignoring that your maths is wrong (you're calculating the momentum which is in N*s and you'd be better off calculating the kinetic energy unless you know the stopping distance and thus deceleration of the horse in order to find the force), no one is currently arguing realism anyway. Even so, I'd imagine that a pike would not break anyway; they were typically made of ash or similar woods which bend significantly before breakage (hence their use in some types of bows). Unless the horse managed to bend the pike considerably in order snap it, I cannot see how it would break (certainly not through compression from being landed on - the pike would sooner pierce through the entire horse before that happened). Still, I'd actually be ok with pikes breaking on use if they killed any horse one shot (can't say many cav would be ok with that though). We're not asking for pikes to one-hit a horse at any rate.

I agree with the silent hooves bit, though if your avatar represents how you play, I'd say your perception is a little skewed. If you're only playing on a light horse then you'll probably feel the full wrath of horse haters (i.e. every non-cav will target you), but you'll have a horse that has significantly lower armor and health than a tank-horse and only a little more speed and manoeuvrability to help. You might have noticed that in several 'nerf cav' threads, the posters have actually been talking about nerfing the tank horses and buffing the light horses.

Ok 1st thing is first. Why would you calculate it using kinetic energy? Kinetic energy is defined as the work needed to accelerate a body of a given mass from rest to its stated velocity, But this is a horse, not a high-tech machine, and this pixelated horse unless its running over completely flat ground is not going to keep the same velocity, therefore it is not kinetic energy, therefore you are dumb.
And 2. i was stating the force applied on impact. If you want to know deceleration look at the games. INSTANT OMG. And IRL i guess it would be over a few metres. YA dont want horse corpses plowing into the pikesquad.

And i never said my maths was right in the first place, IF YOU READ YOU APE, you will see below what i had done i go on to say, 'Considering my findings. If correct that is'
And i don't really see a problem in my maths tbh, it seems like what i had done in high-school. (F=MA) Force= Mass x Acceleration , unless that is the force required to get it to move, that's where its wrong but not the maths, because simple multiplication is not difficult. so there fore what i did was correct but might just have the wrong value in the velocity part.
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Offline UrLukur

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #67 on: January 08, 2011, 02:32:57 pm »
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The Only Proper Cavalry Counter (As In Reality) Is A Pike


In reality, spear was also proper cavalry counter. I know you don't get it, so i suggest you to read more books about medieval battles or not use (as in reality) argument.
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Offline Alopen

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #68 on: January 08, 2011, 03:30:01 pm »
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In reality, spear was also proper cavalry counter. I know you don't get it, so i suggest you to read more books about medieval battles or not use (as in reality) argument.

Which battle might that be?

Offline UrLukur

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #69 on: January 08, 2011, 03:33:03 pm »
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Which battle might that be?

The one where people from Milan owned Barbarossa's cavalry ?
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Offline Toldfield

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #70 on: January 08, 2011, 03:38:29 pm »
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Which battle might that be?

its true.. indeed your underwear is made of recycled cereal.

that point made, spears were used as anti cavelry weapons. the pike derived from the spear, how did they realise long pointy things were good against the nextdoor neighbours my little pony? they prodded it with there spear, then made it longer.

You thinking spears where not used to combat cavalry shows your ignorance and total stupidity, you could probably just type it in google and find it, so do it you inbred goldfish, eat a toaster.
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Offline Mattressi

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #71 on: January 08, 2011, 03:41:44 pm »
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Ok 1st thing is first. Why would you calculate it using kinetic energy? Kinetic energy is defined as the work needed to accelerate a body of a given mass from rest to its stated velocity, But this is a horse, not a high-tech machine, and this pixelated horse unless its running over completely flat ground is not going to keep the same velocity, therefore it is not kinetic energy, therefore you are dumb.

So, wait, I'm dumb because I suggested that since you're using velocity (instead of acceleration) you'd be better of calculating the kinetic energy (KE = 0.5 * m * v^2 where v is velocity) instead of force (F = m * a where a is acceleration NOT velocity)? Regardless of whether it's a high tech machine or a horse it still abides by the laws of physics. KE certainly is as you've defined it, but you do not need to calculate it by finding an object's acceleration over a distance (though you can), you can find it simply by finding the object's instantaneous velocity. Furthermore, if you are going to argue that the velocity changes, what good are your calculations which also use velocity (ignoring that they should not be using it anyway)? You're getting hung up on minute details (like changing velocity due to uneven ground) when the entire calculation you've performed is incorrect!

And 2. i was stating the force applied on impact. If you want to know deceleration look at the games. INSTANT OMG. And IRL i guess it would be over a few metres. YA dont want horse corpses plowing into the pikesquad.

Clearly you know nothing of basic physics, which would be fine if you weren't a complete wanker about it. If the impact is instantaneous (i.e. the velocity of an object goes from a number above zero down to zero over a distance of 0 units) then the force would be infinite: force = mass * acceleration (acceleration can be negative - deceleration - as well as positive) and if the object stops over a distance of absolutely nothing, it must have infinite deceleration at that point. This is why I was saying your maths (equation, working, whatever you want) was wrong - you aren't calculating the force even though you believe you are. The other issue is that you are assuming the pike is doing the stopping; the horse rears because it stops itself, so the pike would not be absorbing much of the horse's KE at all. If the horse dies and falls on the pike, the pike would likely pierce through the horse and the horse would stop due to the friction of it's body sliding on the ground, not due, in some way, to the pike.

And i never said my maths was right in the first place, IF YOU READ YOU APE, you will see below what i had done i go on to say, 'Considering my findings. If correct that is'

Great, so I corrected your maths (equation, working, whatever). What's the problem?

And i don't really see a problem in my maths tbh, it seems like what i had done in high-school. (F=MA) Force= Mass x Acceleration

As I've already said in this post, you were using the VELOCITY of the horse when the formula requires the ACCELERATION. You can't interchange velocity and acceleration.

unless that is the force required to get it to move, that's where its wrong but not the maths, because simple multiplication is not difficult.


If you really want to get into a semantics debate: maths is the basis for every equation you use, therefore it is acceptable to refer to it as 'your maths'. What would you have me call it; your use of physics? Well, it's certainly a part of a subset of physics, but it is actually a part of classical mechanics. Should I have stated that your use of classical mechanics was flawed? At what point have I been specific enough for you to accept that I was talking about your use of the force imparted on/by a body due to acceleration/deceleration? If I asked you to perform a basic geometric calculation for me and you used the formula for the area of a sphere when I asked you to find the volume of a sphere, would you count that as wrong maths or something else? It might be a part of what you studied in maths, but it is as much 'maths' as Newton's Second Law. Essentially you've done the same here; you've used a formula (derived from and proven by mathematics) incorrectly.

so there fore what i did was correct but might just have the wrong value in the velocity part.

So, you are saying that while you drew conclusions from an incorrect formula and shoved them down our throats with insults, what you did was correct (except for that itty bitty part about the entire premise of your argument being flawed)?


Note: I understand that you are trolling, but I still would like to prove your premise wrong, simply because I fear you may actually have been serious (and not just trolling) about that poor excuse for a use of mechanics (I just don't know if you actually thought your use of the force equation was correct). Seriously, stay in school, troll less and you might actually learn enough that one day you'll be able to hold your own in a debate instead of just trolling because you lack the knowledge to engage in a real debate. I took a troll point from you for your childish attempt at trolling (here and in other threads). It's sad when you have to resort to trolling, but fail at that too :cry:
« Last Edit: January 08, 2011, 03:44:53 pm by Mattressi »

Offline Toldfield

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #72 on: January 08, 2011, 04:02:51 pm »
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Mattressi, thank you for doing exactly what i wanted, you made my post what it was, it was meant to stir a reaction and it did, thank you for that.

But i want you to explain one thing, lets say that the horse it at an average velocity of 11m/s, because the horse is sustaining that speed but cannot keep it exactly 11m/s means that it isnt kenetic energy, so rule that out. (i know im going into miniscule details but as you said, TROLL POST?) sooooo. that means lets say, the horse is accelerating at .3m/s because it is already going near its top speed (just saying that this is this horses top speed) that it cant accelerate any faster. so are we going to do .3m/s x 500kg :/ . so that now seems awfully wrong, unless we calculate it like you said, deceleration, so lets say the horse stopped over 2.5 metres, so it is short of the pikemen. AND if i the horse came to a complete stop after half a second. random time chosen, although at the speed the horse was travelling prior, the deceleration will be great as we both know. so we are going to do, initial speed - final speed /time taken.

11m/s - 0m/s / .5      = ==== -22m/s..  now if we do acceleration x mass -22  x 500  = 11000 N or whatever   now im not saying this is correct. but its still alot of force.

so when the horse stops, the egg will burn.
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Offline Toldfield

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #73 on: January 08, 2011, 04:04:26 pm »
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and waiiit a minute, how did anything that i said specifically insult you. self esteem problems i see.

i had to modify this after i read something you said. You took a troll point from me? wow that hurt a lot, thank you for enlightening me on the fact that there is actually TROLL POINTS. And that you felt the actual need to take one from me makes me feel special, thanks :D
« Last Edit: January 08, 2011, 04:08:49 pm by Toldfield »
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Offline Bulzur

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #74 on: January 08, 2011, 04:48:01 pm »
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Thanks for the physics statemnt Mattressi, and no thanks for Toldfield for bringing up this RL argument wich... we call bs when trying to balance a GAME.
Who cares about the fact a bump would actually kill someone, who cares about the fact that a wounded guy with an arrow in his feet wouldn't be allowed to walk or run that fast, who cares horses jump higher than the best ones, this way evading some pikeman, who cares about the fact that a slash to the carotide can leave the ennemy alive, providing he has 30 str and 10 IF, who cares about realistic arguments !

In a balance term, horses are OP. And it's not just a question of price (look at the number of people asking for a polearm/bow/2h/1h at a price of 60,000 gold), but of gameplay and ownage. You were killed by a couched LoC on a courser from the front, with your plate armor and 30str, and a pike ? Too bad, cav just needs to press X while you have to get the best timing and move to actually be able to stop the horse without diing. You were killed by a 1hand sword slashed from the horseman even though you stopped his horse with your polearm ? Too bad, hit boxes from TW ftw. You were 1hit by a cav with whatever weapon coming from behind that you didn't heard. Too bad, you can't feel the earth shattering when horses are galoping, and you can't hear them well either anyway. You got bumpkilled even though you blocked down ? Yep, hitbox ftw, the cav with his lance can hit in front of his horse without hitting his horse. Horse bumped you and other teammates to death, and hasn't receive any damage from that ? Yep, that's sad.

So now, we have some footman asking for a SPECIAL horse, or at least an item that fits in the "horse" equipment, wich requires 5 athletics and wich gives "+2 athletics, +2 PS, +2 PD, +2 PT". Cost is the same as a destrier. Let's call them SOCKS. How about it ? The requirement and the bonus are pure random, of course. But what's the answer to this ? HARDCODED. Even by implementing a very tiny horse, as big as a ant, wich gives the impression you're walking, you'll still won't be able to use items "non usable on horse", nor would you actually care about your athletics anymore.

Humm... then how to balance this damn horse, since we can't give footmen another expensive item. If you lower the horse life, cav will whine. If you add dmg to horse when the horse bumps, the cav will whine. If you make the horse more expensive, the cav will whine. But hey... this is Mount & Blade, and i'm pretty sure cav were supposed to be OP. So i don't have any idea about how to balance this thing, even more since we're playing a mod using TW engine, so we can't just tell TW to add another slot in the equipment sheet, or whateveR.
Good luck finding it, cause at the moment, cav is OP.
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[19:32] <@chadz> if(dave_ukr_is_in_server) then rain_chance = 98%;