Author Topic: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered  (Read 13357 times)

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Offline Delro

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2011, 08:00:35 pm »
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Mounts kill my crpg experience.

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Offline Darth_Tard

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2011, 08:18:31 pm »
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People need to stop complaining about OP cav. In my five characters, I have never used a horse, and have never had problems with them. I agree with AngryScotsman in that to kill horses, you need to invest in anti-cav abilities. I have found throwing to be an ample threat to cav, both armored and unarmored. Just because your character's build is weak to cav, doesn't mean that you need to complain about it being OP. My character's weakness is against spammers, due to my incredibly low agility. Balance and weaknesses are something that comes with the game.
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Offline Darth_Tard

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2011, 08:31:13 pm »
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Now that I said my piece, I'm gonna go ahead and say that AngryScotsman needs to take his medicine. Chill out and try to socialize with us dude. LULZ!!!!
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Offline Memento_Mori

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2011, 09:01:50 pm »
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People need to stop complaining about OP cav. In my five characters, I have never used a horse, and have never had problems with them. I agree with AngryScotsman in that to kill horses, you need to invest in anti-cav abilities. I have found throwing to be an ample threat to cav, both armored and unarmored. Just because your character's build is weak to cav, doesn't mean that you need to complain about it being OP. My character's weakness is against spammers, due to my incredibly low agility. Balance and weaknesses are something that comes with the game.

Exactly what this guy said except I have high agi and low str, low armor, my high agi allows me to use a pike relatively fast for having only 1 WPP but yeah thats how I deal with Cav, I get pwned by archers, xbowmen and throwers... I don't own a shield.

Offline Grey

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2011, 09:06:45 pm »
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ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS>PAPER>ROCK>SCISSORS  :twisted:
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Offline Murchad

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #35 on: January 06, 2011, 09:54:09 pm »
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I am a HA and cav is easymode, now that Horsearchery has been nerfed so much the cav have no natural enemies.

I can pick up any weapon off the ground and easily get a bunch of kills riding my cataphract.
I don't really even need to pick up a weapon acually.

I would like if (heavy) horses died much easier to melee and had about the same resistance to arrows they do now.
Also bump damage should be at least halved. I get lots of bump kills and I hate it... they require no skill
horsearchers against shield players like to bump them over and shoot them while their guard is down, but now the bump does more damage than the shot.

I used to see it as my duty as a horsearcher to shoot down all enemy cavalrymen or their horses. now with the cut damage arrows and the other nerfs i sometimes feel i am shooting a brick wall.

My alternate char is a polearms char. I have been using a pike lately and have been having fun the problem is that cav can take so much damage that after i rear their horse they can just start riding into me and bumpslash me before i can do anything.

Offline Everkistus

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #36 on: January 06, 2011, 10:01:14 pm »
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I play as cav, 2H (longsword) and thrower.

As cav: It's not as easy as you might think. Sometimes I have to circle around for a long time because there seems to be lots of people using pike these days. I use a Sarranid Horse, and if I ride into a pike it WILL kill the poor thing. The easiest targets are unaware archers who are concentrated on firing. Usually they are at enemy flanks, so I can approach from flank and ride through the crowd, bumping about 4 guys in the way. Never through the whole mass, because then my horse would stop and I would be dead. Two-handed stab is also a killer, if I ride into it I'll be dead. BTW I use an Iron Staff on horseback, so I need to get close before hitting.

Haven't played that much with 2H, seems to be similar. Horsemen should stay away from the stab, with the speedbonus it really hurts. Killed a couple horses with it.

Throwing: This is a real killer for horses. My best moment was when I twoshotted Phazh Cata horse from under him with Jarids. When I play as my cav char, I always stay away from throwers.

Offline Grey

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #37 on: January 06, 2011, 10:14:28 pm »
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BTW I use an Iron Staff on horseback, so I need to get close before hitting.

You got wpf in Poles, and riding, but DONT use a lance....theres a reason we all got one, its the wtg.

And yeah, pikes and throwers rape your horse, thats because:

(click to show/hide)

and if each class wasnt killed by all the other classes when they are played well, then it wouldnt be a game, it would be shit.
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Offline Murchad

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #38 on: January 06, 2011, 10:15:54 pm »
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Everkistus
I don't think anyone is complaining about the light horses, they have plenty of weaknesses
it is the Panzer IV and Sherman varieties that people are discussing.

Grey
The problem is when the paper covers the rock with a well timed pike thrust but the rock rips right through it and destroys the paper

I may be wrong about it all and the upkeep may balance it out... time will tell but I wouldnt count on it
« Last Edit: January 06, 2011, 10:20:26 pm by Murchad »

Offline Everkistus

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #39 on: January 06, 2011, 10:46:28 pm »
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I'm very afraid that if horses get nerfed, the same nerf would apply to light horses as well, making them absolute shit.

Offline Joker86

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2011, 10:57:47 pm »
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Just make armoured horses far more expensive. It wouldn't hurt the purchase of a horse itself (as saving some money is easy now), but it WOULD hurt the upkeep.
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline PieParadox

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #41 on: January 07, 2011, 01:04:03 am »
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As a newer player I thought I'd give some input.

The thread starter has truth to his argument, yet, it doesn't exactly mean the power of good cavalry should stay as it is. My following points are based on my experiences with an unarmoured horse. I got about a 3-4 kills per death on average.
I'm about level 20 now, and I ride a Palfrey (before the latest patch, I did too, not because of upkeep). Most of my kills rely on exploiting the enemy. I rely on catching them off guard or while they're vulnerable. For example, I'll come from behind a group of enemy and quickly scout it first, then charge for those I know who wouldn't see me coming (commonsense yea?). Half the time, pikemen we already see me, and I'll evade them and kill the guy next to them. There's a false sense of security of your teammates being around you and so situational awareness is lower, allowing cavalry to plow quickly through.

As  I said, I had a k/d of about 3:1 but its based on rounds and if I exploit correctly. I'll get 9 kills one round but maybe 1 the next.

Someone was saying that it's unfair that some people don't have enough equipment slots to fight cavalry. And that really shouldn't be a problem (but it still is I know). A guy who runs into an open field is a target for cavalry. However, if anything, that target should be armed with a strong polearm. The target should not be there if he doesn't have one. People need to play to their advantages; if the enemy has heavy cavalry, stick to the village/castle/etc., rather than open fields.

Pikes are not the only dangers... Second to me are are javelin throwers... I will attack some enemies only to be dehorsed by 1-2 javelins.

I also bought a pike recently (no WPF, i only have WPF in 1h) for the explicit reason of cavalry. With the new lower skill requirements in riding, more cavalry are bound to start popping up.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 01:26:23 am by PieParadox »

Offline Seawied

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #42 on: January 07, 2011, 05:59:23 am »
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I'm very afraid that if horses get nerfed, the same nerf would apply to light horses as well, making them absolute shit.

A reasonable fear. Show me someone who thinks the light horses are OP and I'll show you a complete noob. I actually think light horses could use small buff.
So with PT >10 stones become simple too effective
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Offline Mattressi

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2011, 06:11:25 am »
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The proper counter to cavalry is cavalry

Ah, that explains the ridiculous rant and subsequent posts. You believe that the game balance is fine when the only counter to something is itself. If this were how the game was meant to work, why shouldn't we all just go cavalry? They clearly have the advantage over ranged players (they quickly ride up to them and kill them) and they clearly have an extreme advantage over anyone engaged in any other activity (in a melee, dodging arrows) because they can ride up quickly and silently behind them and lance them. The only disadvantage to playing cavalry is someone using a pike. Not even a polearms user or any type of class - one specific weapon is regarded as being capable of stopping cavalry.

The problem with this is that cavalry can easily ride past any pikeman - I've yet to ever catch a horseman that realised I was a pikeman and rode the opposite direction. I've yet to successfully surprise a cavalry by pulling out my pike just before they're in range - I either get killed because I waited to long to pull it out and attack or I pull it out with just enough time to attack; which also happens to be enough time for the cav to ride way past me.

How can a pikeman get the jump on cav? They don't have the speed for it, so all they can do is hope that a cav will ride into their pike.

If it's a one vs one situation (somehow), all the cav needs to do is ride slowly at the pikeman so that the thrust doesn't rear up the horse or damage it too greatly and then proceed to thrust/slash at the pikeman. Once the horse has lost a reasonable amount of health, the cav can back off a little, dismount and hey-presto, they're infantry! Pikeman's already had a bit of health taken off, so it's not a terribly difficult fight for a half decently skilled cav (one that can actually block - I've seen some that can't!).

People keep saying that it's a case of rock stating that paper is OP and scissors are fine. The reality is, however, that there is no such system in place. 2H/polearms beat 1H shielders which beat ranged which beat 2H/polearm. Cav beat ranged, 2H/polearm and shielders one on one. In groups, cav can easily swarm a few players (cav have a huge speed advantage, so they can flank the infantry from both sides, that way one is guaranteed to kill him). If the going really gets tough (too many pikes) they can just dismount. The few points they spent on riding aren't a big enough disadvantage to guarantee they'll lose an infantry fight (and their agi/str are usually decently balanced - I've never seen a tank rider who can't wear plate).

As the OP said, he believes cav should counter cav, which clearly shows he doesn't want a rock/paper/scissors type balance either. No idea why he believes that should be the case (it's neither realistic nor balanced), but that's it.

I believe a better balance would be: 2H/polearm beats 1H/cav beats bows/xbow beats 2H/polearm. Bows now have cutting damage, so cav is even more dangerous to them than before, xbows still have pierce but have such a long reload time that they're extremely vulnerable to cav too. So, all that would be need is for cav horses to be given less health - they have armor to stop the arrows and bolts, so the only thing they need lots of health for is fighting infantry (high pierce plus extra damage due to speed takes off much more health than an arrow). It'd be nice if 2H weapons could rear a horse too, but that might be asking too much.

Edit: Also, get rid of the frigging knock-down! It's realistic that a horse charging someone could knock them down, but it's also realistic that someone with an axe or maul could break a horses legs (even as they're being trampled)! Either make horses as vulnerable as they are IRL (even the ones with armor would frequently break legs, not to mention simply not do as the rider wanted because they were injured or scared) or remove knock down. Hell, leave it in for a charging horse if it's an absolute must (as if cav don't have enough advantages over others), but please stop a cav from slowly walking over me and knocking me down. Often I'll finally manage to force a cav into a wall and he'll just turn around, ride the few steps between me and him and then ride straight over the top of me, knocking me down. Sadly, I fear horse bumping might be hard coded :(
« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 06:22:07 am by Mattressi »

Offline Rimking

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #44 on: January 07, 2011, 12:47:49 pm »
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Angry_scot is being an ass again?

Surprising.