Author Topic: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered  (Read 13358 times)

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Offline AngryScotsman

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Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« on: January 06, 2011, 03:01:37 am »
+1
A forewarning to those of you apes who are incapable of rational thinking, have the attention span of the arse end of a camel or have nothing useful to add to this world: this post requires you to follow my reasoning and see why I think cavalry isn't overpowered.

System vs. Behaviour

Firstly, I will define this model I will use to describe this perceived problem.

"System" can be defined as the mechanical aspects of CRPG relating to cavalry; such as cavalry weapons, anti-cavalry weaponry, horse statistics, etc.
"Behaviour" can be defined as the habits, tactics, methods of coping with or defeating cavalry players use against them, etc.

Secondly, there is an important practical distinction between something be overpowered because of  the mechanics of the system and something being 'overpowered' due to the (bad) behaviour of people. I will paraphrase a conclusion relating to health and safety law that I think is a useful paradigm in this case. 'Systems don't make mistakes, people do'.

Thus, in order to make this argument, I will have to discuss why I think the System of cavalry in CRPG is innately balanced.

Countering Cavalry

I'll address plated chargers mainly: if the argument applies to them, it applies to other warhorses.

Players don't like the durability of the plated charger. Nor do they like its ability to take chunks out of a players health bar by riding into them. These are poor arguments against the plate charger because of reasons (mainly poor tactics) I will describe further below when I discuss Behaviour. But for now, I will make an observation. A great many players who complain about the plated charger attempt to defeat it using the wrong type of weapon. These same players may also fail to acknowledge that their builds have to have weaknesses. In the end of the day, if one player invests as a cavalry character, and you invest as a foot based character, you would be an idiot to not have acknowledged the threat against you from the cavalry. To that end, the polearms weapon set is a versatile weapon tree that includes many weapons that, if you had been built to counter cavalry properly, you would have no problem with.

The Only Proper Cavalry Counter (As In Reality) Is A Pike

Consider the Long Awlpike. It's a long weapon that can stop a horse attacking you at a 45 degree angle (a tactic used by cavalry players to give the infantry fighter minimum chance to hit). It can also be used with a shield; thus you have some protection against ranged attacks. It does 32 piercing damage and thus will penetrate the heavy armour of the plated charger effectively. No other melee weapon does such significant piercing damage at such distance. Consider also the Pike, its an extremely long weapon that is the ultimate cavalry stopper. It may not kill the cavalry outright, but no weapon should unless the cavalry player rides into it without guard up.

As for characters not built to be defensible against cavalry; it is a poor argument to be surpised when your two handed sword is not reliable weapon against a heavy horse galloping at you at full speed. Or when your bow doesn't little damage to the horse. Good armour would defeat arrows and histrically, a longbow was only effective against mail at about 20m. With a pike, or long awlpike, you would deter that cavalry and defeat it if it was stupid enough to repeatedly attack you. it is an equally poor argument to claim cavalry is overpowered when being attacked by multiple horseman. The fact of the matter is, it doesn't matter if your fighting cavalry or infantry: if you're being hit by multiple enemies you are at a disadvantage (and rightly so). As such, there is no Systematic problem, only a Behavioural one. Wrong weapon, wrong place, wrong expectations.

Other Misperceptions

Poor situation awareness is a common Behavioural reason why cavalry is perceived as overpowered. Consider this: for every cavalry player in CRPG there are usually more capable pike users. That means the cavalry cannot simply ride you over; a common perception by many is that a player on a plated charger (like TheFinn) rides over the enemy team because his horse is impregable. This is nonsense, more often than not the enemy horseman rides over a team because half of them are staring at a wall, leeching, mistime their pike attacks, do not have pikes ready, or expecting that their simple spear will stop the armoured horse. All it takes is one pike out of the entire team to stop a cavalry player. Note also, that a spear will stop an unarmoured horse. Poor situation awareness and team incompetance does not make cavalry overpowered.

Infantry also have mobility that a cavalryman doesn't have in that cavalry is terrain dependent. It is a poor observation to say cavalry is overpowered when standing in the open being flanked by horsemen. You will notice decent players stay near walls, jumping out the way of a charge, evading attacks at the last moment, and detering the cavalry with ready stab attack. Considering that a good archer can do massive damage by headshotting a charging horse, cavalry are actually very limited in what they can do if not armoured. The armoured horses themselves can be stopped a weapon like the awlpike.

Horse Archery

Mechanically, for a horse archer to be a more powerful shot they must invest in Power Draw and thus Strength. For a horse archer to invest in horse archery skills like riding and horse archery, they must invest in Agility. This mitigates the nightmare scenario of a plated charger mounted horse archer. Horse archers are also unable to use a shield when shooting. Once again, I believe there is nothing Systematically wrong with horse archers, but Behaviourally players are frustrated by horse archers but instead of commiting ranged attacks all at once towards the horseman or horse, they get seperated, singled out, shot and killed. No horse archer is impregable to arrows. They cannot wear heavy armour and they cannot equip a shield.

The Onyl Real Problem With Cavalry

In my opinion, the forcefield shield effect on cavalry is the only real overpowered matter on cavalry. The shield is too maneuverable and too effective on horseback with high shield skill. Fixing this is a matter of balance, but all the other situations describe above relate mainly to examples not involving a shield. Sometimes, a pikeman will end up hitting the shield instead of the horse despite aiming for the horse. In the wider dynamics of the game, this is not a major problem as multiple pikemen can and should be employed anyway, as described below.

The Real Problem Is Teamwork

The ultimate contributing factor to the effectiveness of cavalry is the way people play. Cavalry is effectively when ranks are broken, enemies are in disarray, and self-interest is greater than teamwork. Consider that most CRPG players do not use pikes effectively to protect their team or have an expectation that their messy barbarian horde team should be cavalry proof when it exactly those types of rag tag formations cavalry is made to destroy.

In practice, a good team will be able to deter cavalry from their team using pikes, good use of terrain, and having a stake in your teammates surivival rather than your individual kills. There is no decent cavalry player stupid enough to charge into a bristle of pikes. With the addition of friendly horse bumping in the latest patch; cavalry are further limited in who they can attack when looking for openings.

If teams got in the habit of using a mixture of pikes and other weapons when moving across open terrain and stay tight enough to protect each other but not so tight such that weapons start bouncing off people, then it makes it very difficult for cavalry to attack. If once the infantry enters combat and simply 'forgets' about the enemy cavalry: do not be suprised when you get a lance up your arse.


Offline Seawied

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2011, 03:04:01 am »
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 :rolleyes:

All I gotta say is try using a pike to kill a heavy cataphract horse by yourself.

This is coming from a former cavalry player.
So with PT >10 stones become simple too effective
:lol:

Offline AngryScotsman

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2011, 03:07:51 am »
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All I have to say to that is ride anything at full gallop into a pike and it will rear. With the correct technique, timing and WPF of course. This is coming from a cavalry player who uses pikes when on foot.

Offline Seawied

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2011, 03:09:02 am »
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Oh thats right! It will REAR! /sarcasm

Aint gonna die from a single pikeman  though.
So with PT >10 stones become simple too effective
:lol:

Offline Visus

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2011, 03:13:29 am »
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The reason why it is op is because the plated charger and other warhorses will take multiple pikes to the face at full gallop before they can be killed. You brought realism into an argument about a game to prove a point before. So...how is that real?
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Offline Beans

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2011, 03:14:32 am »
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As a cav player the only way heavy cav dies is when you get lazy/stupid.  If you pay full attention there is no way for other players to aggressively attack and kill you, outside of horse archers.  The poor dudes on foot have to rely on the cav to make a mistake, like ride into a pike, toot around in the open and get pelted by archers, or try and horse bump through a group of infantry too dense. 

However on the reverse side if the cav makes a mistake it usually won't immediately lead to their death.  If you are a footman, just a 2 second mistake can cause you to die from cav.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2011, 03:17:59 am by Beans »

Offline AngryScotsman

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2011, 03:18:15 am »
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It will if it repeatedly rides into you. It does do significant damage due to the horse riding into your pike more than you stabbing the horse. The same happens when an infantry player walks into a pike. Also, you cannot argue a pike should kill a horse riding into it in a single stroke if its that heavily armoured.

Pikes are a formation weapon: always have and always will be. The answer to your problem is therefore more pikes and teamwork. If your arguing for realism (which by the way I am a fan of in games) then a pike should not be as manveurable, players should not be able to pull them out their bottomless pockets, and they should do the same type of damage a couched lance does, proportionate to the velocity of the charging horse.

In other words, a player could sit in a ready stance with a pike to receive a charge.

If your not arguing for realism, then theres no reason to believe a single pike should take down a plated charger. You are not superman.

« Last Edit: January 06, 2011, 03:19:29 am by AngryScotsman »

Offline Visus

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2011, 03:22:55 am »
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It will if it repeatedly rides into you. It does do significant damage due to the horse riding into your pike more than you stabbing the horse. The same happens when an infantry player walks into a pike. Also, you cannot argue a pike should kill a horse riding into it in a single stroke if its that heavily armoured.

Pikes are a formation weapon: always have and always will be. The answer to your problem is therefore more pikes and teamwork. If your arguing for realism (which by the way I am a fan of in games) then a pike should not be as manveurable, players should not be able to pull them out their bottomless pockets, and they should do the same type of damage a couched lance does, proportionate to the velocity of the charging horse.

In other words, a player could sit in a ready stance with a pike to receive a charge.

If your not arguing for realism, then theres no reason to believe a single pike should take down a plated charger. You are not superman.
No, but no actual horse can survive running into a pole tipped with pointy iron to the face or chest multiple times, say...2 or 3. In real life, most likely no horse would live through one. Then again, no horse would be decked out in as much plate as that behemoth is. So I am fine with cav having multiple chances to be piked, but that should be 2...or 3 times at most. Not the 4 or 5 a plated charger can survive. It truly is a War Elephant.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2011, 03:24:04 am by Visus »
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Offline Vaxican

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2011, 03:28:55 am »
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A horse running 30-40mph getting stopped by a pike in the chest WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO PRANCE AWAY.

Offline Seawied

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2011, 03:31:19 am »
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Lets analyze your latest rebuttal


It will if it repeatedly rides into you.
"It will if the rider is an idiot and makes the same mistake multiple times." Translation: only if the rider is an idiot.
It does do significant damage due to the horse riding into your pike more than you stabbing the horse. The same happens when an infantry player walks into a pike.
Except this infantryman walking into a pike has 4 times the starting life and the equivalent of black plate+ plated gloves. Did I mention he doesn't get the wpf of black armor either?
Also, you cannot argue a pike should kill a horse riding into it in a single stroke if its that heavily armoured.
Sure you can! Are you saying that in armor, a horse can't break a leg? Or that you can't stab a horse in the eye, gouging out its brain? Or that you can't attack the unarmored part of a horse? Plenty of ways a horse can die in armor.

Pikes are a formation weapon: always have and always will be. The answer to your problem is therefore more pikes and teamwork.
Translation: it should take multiple people to kill a single person on a horse. By this definition, having one person be worth 5 equally skilled players is balanced. If thats the case, I want my polearm of gold balance for my infantry character

If your arguing for realism (which by the way I am a fan of in games) then a pike should not be as manveurable, players should not be able to pull them out their bottomless pockets, and they should do the same type of damage a couched lance does, proportionate to the velocity of the charging horse.

... and if you're arguing realism, then you should have to sit-out 1/3rd of all battles to nurse your nasty case of dysentery brought on by the life of a soldier. Realism arguments have no place in c-rpg. We tossed that out with the implementation of the boulder-on-a-stick (aka "long maul.")

In other words, a player could sit in a ready stance with a pike to receive a charge.
I can't hear you over the sound of you fapping to your horse.

If your not arguing for realism, then theres no reason to believe a single pike should take down a plated charger. You are not superman.
Same can be said to your heavy-cav build you are so infatuated with
« Last Edit: January 06, 2011, 03:33:49 am by Seawied »
So with PT >10 stones become simple too effective
:lol:

Offline Visus

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2011, 03:33:08 am »
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A horse running 30-40mph getting stopped by a pike in the chest WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO PRANCE AWAY.
+1
AngryScotsman your argument is invalid and irrational. GG Sir. WP.
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Offline AngryScotsman

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2011, 03:33:19 am »
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No, but no actual horse can survive running into a pole tipped with pointy iron to the face or chest multiple times, say...2 or 3. In real life, most likely no horse would live through one. Then again, no horse would be decked out in as much plate as that behemoth is. So I am fine with cav having multiple chances to be piked, but that should be 2...or 3 times at most. Not the 4 or 5 a plated charger can survive. It truly is a War Elephant.

As I said, if your argung for realism, then the pikes should be severely reduced in mobility to be effective, and not as easy to pull out of thin air. The pikeman should then be able to 'couch' the pike (i.e. hold it towards the charging horse) to let the cavalry charging the pike to kill itself upon it. I would not be against such a mechanic. But if your talking game balance, then you cannot argue your single pike (cheap weapon) should kill the horse outright. Unlike in reality, cavalry players have to be mindful any infantry player could suddenly pull out a pike: if the cavalry player is using a light horse, then the threat is even bigger. It's not the cakewalk players think it is.

Since your arguing realism: I encourage you to watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsSS5D7GCCM particularly the part about Scots pike drill. Observe the size of the 'pikes' there (more like stakes). Like I said, you cannot argue, game balance considered, that your cheap pike should outright kill the horse, unless you made it realistic all round with the pike.

And we are only talking about pikes here: the long awlpike does 32 pierce and I assure you, a plated charger riding into that won't survive many hits from that.

Offline AngryScotsman

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2011, 03:35:00 am »
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+1
AngryScotsman your argument is invalid and irrational. GG Sir. WP.

Once again, citing realism to argue a game balance issue is itself irrational. If you want realism, I'd suggest you consider what I said about proper pike drill and not being able to pull a pike out your pocket, or couching the pike so it does the same damage as couched lance would if the horse rode into it.

 No doubt, some of you aren't reading fully what I'm writing. I've made my point for now, and thus will leave it at that.

Offline Vaxican

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2011, 03:40:41 am »
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Horses in the games current state are overpowered, the only counter to them is  to rely on the user to make a mistake or wait for him to get arrowed down. This isn't from a standpoint of realism but from a standpoint of playstyle balance. Currently, whichever team has more cavalry will usually win. Realistic? perhaps. Enjoyable for anyone other than the people using the mounts? No. I even hate friendly mounts because they constantly friendly bump/tk me. Mounts kill my crpg experience.

Offline Visus

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Re: Why Cavalry Isn't Overpowered
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2011, 03:44:47 am »
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Once again, citing realism to argue a game balance issue is itself irrational. If you want realism, I'd suggest you consider what I said about proper pike drill and not being able to pull a pike out your pocket, or couching the pike so it does the same damage as couched lance would if the horse rode into it.

 No doubt, some of you aren't reading fully what I'm writing. I've made my point for now, and thus will leave it at that.
No no no. You don't fully understand what you are saying. You want plated chargers running around cRPG taking 5 pikes or so before they can finally be killed? Even with a "proper pike drill" do you actually expect the idiots in this mod to perform a basic maneuver?
That is irrational. And couching pikes would never be used because they would be outlengthed by any bright and agile horseman with a lance. There shouldn't be tanks on the cRPG battlefield but there are. Everyone knows it too...except you.
Actually. I would be fine with plated chargers tanking it up like a Panzer IV...as long as I can bring my 300p Spartan Laser with me. 
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