How the hell is 1h underpowered?

[Paul]

I don't think there was any change to (defender) block stun ever. At least I can't remember any. I took another look at the stun code cmp delievered some time ago and  I found several things interesting:

1) There are only 2 different stun lengths, short(practically no stun) and long. Several attacker and defender variables(like weapon/shield weight) are used to figure out which of the two is used.

2) Attacker's weapon weight is only used for sideswings. Overhead gets a fixed bonus. Weapons above 3(?) weight should actually stun better on side swings(sceptical here, got to test). Defender weapon/shield weight is always used.

4) Blunt gets a bonus for attacker.

5) Attacker weapon gets most bonus if it's a 2h, then polearm, 1h is worst. Defender weapon gets most bonus if it's a polearm, then 2h, again 1h(no shield) is worst.

6) The slower the defender weapon the better it is to prevent stun. Does not apply for shields.

7) Stabs can't stun. Attacks with a hold bonus below 1.2(<0.2s holding time I think) can't stun.  Holding time between 0.5s and 0.6s gets most stun chance. Holding for longer lowers stun chance again. Doesn't go lower after 1.1s or more though.

8) Wider shields are better at defending against stun.

There was still some unknown stuff in the code which might be include raw damage(so overhead gets a buff) or speed bonus.

[Lannistark]

Funny how my comment before woke up so many hostilities and disagreements. I was being ironic, because 1h has not 200 reach when it stabs, 2h does, 1h does not have stun when it hits, polearms do have, and the simple idea that 1h can be converted into throwing weapons is just way to retarded that everyone should have realised by then (the shorty ones) that I was being ironic. In other words, 1h / no shield is underpowered.

Btw Paul now that I got you, whats up with Rageball?

[Falka]

1h does not have stun when it hits, polearms do have,

 

Btw Paul now that I got you, whats up with Rageball?

DEAD! 

[Paul]

blame chadz

[Lannistark]

blame chadz

Fuck off.

[Tydeus]

7) Stabs can't stun. Attacks with a hold bonus below 1.2(<0.2s holding time I think) can't stun.  Holding time between 0.5s and 0.6s gets most stun chance. Holding for longer lowers stun chance again. Doesn't go lower after 1.1s or more though.

8) Wider shields are better at defending against stun.

There was still some unknown stuff in the code which might be include raw damage(so overhead gets a buff) or speed bonus.

So hold stun bonus coincides with the hold damage bonus then, if I'm not mistaken. Correct?

Clearly I don't use my shield enough as I had no idea you could actually got stunned with your shield, outside of crushthrough. I have always thought, for anyone who has manual blocking skills, it's better to fight without your shield when fighting a single opponent. Question is, what advantages does the shield actually provide over blocking with your weapon?

[Kafein]

Translation: I should be able to take a 1handed sword, do awesome damage while not being very good at the game at all, put no effort into learning how to better my techniques or footwork while being able to move around as well as any agi build and survive like a str build.

Just added you to my list of "People I never need to read a post from ever again".

Well why not ? 2h and poles are like that. I can (and I have) just take my 2h alt, hop in a server, start swinging mindlessly and never bounce, move faster than my 1h char yet with less agility and ath, have a longer reach, more damage, more hp, more armor, a stab attack that never bounces except when used in full retard mode and does a retarded amount of damage, and even take a CT weapon when I'm bored and get a guaranteed 3/1 k/d...

I can do all of that and my experience in 2h is just "I know how to block". Yet it is often more effective to play a class I have a few hundred hours of experience with, rather than the one I've been playing for several thousands.

The shield has become a petty excuse for all the disadvantages that apply to 1h compared to the other melee weapons. Blocking is virtually a non-issue today, most deaths happen because people get ganked or backstabbed.

[Jarlek]

So hold stun bonus coincides with the hold damage bonus then, if I'm not mistaken. Correct?

Clearly I don't use my shield enough as I had no idea you could actually got stunned with your shield, outside of crushthrough. I have always thought, for anyone who has manual blocking skills, it's better to fight without your shield when fighting a single opponent. Question is, what advantages does the shield actually provide over blocking with your weapon?

Lower chance to get block stunned and not having to choose block direction. Not really that good considering they cost skillpoints, gold and slows you down.

[rustyspoon]

Clearly I don't use my shield enough as I had no idea you could actually got stunned with your shield, outside of crushthrough. I have always thought, for anyone who has manual blocking skills, it's better to fight without your shield when fighting a single opponent. Question is, what advantages does the shield actually provide over blocking with your weapon?

Yeah, a lot of non-shield users always talk about how awesome they are, but have no real experience with them.

PROS:
- Good at blocking multiple opponents. (Only if they are all in front of you.)
- Don't have to worry about directional blocking.
- Blocks ranged. (Only from your front arc.)
- Makes you practically invulnerable from the front arc.
- Keeps you from being weapon stunned. (Can still be shield stunned.)

CONS:
- The majority of shields block slower than manual blocks. (If Mori isn't wearing armor, my shield isn't fast enough to block his hilt-slashes. I have to switch to manual.)
- Slows you down. (Just carrying it makes you slower, but blocking makes you INCREDIBLY slow.)
- Breaks. (Any shield will go down with a few hits from an axe.)
- Shield stun. (I used a Knightly Heater for a time, but got annoyed at how frequently I got shield stunned. With my Heavy Round, only a str build using a bar mace stuns me.)
- False sense of security. (Due to the fact that blocking isn't tied to the animation, it's impossible to tell when you're actually blocking. You just have to get a feel for it, especially with the slower shields. Also, your front may block attacks, but your sides are completely open. The only shield with pretty good side coverage is the Huscarl.)
- Telegraphing of attacks. (Due to having a giant piece of wood come up in front of you, it's pretty easy to tell when you're feinting and when you're attacking. It's much harder to follow 1h attacks when not using a shield.)
- Point investment. (You really need to invest 6 shield skill to make it worth it in my opinion. Anything less than that seems to break way too fast. Still, you could take those 6 points and put them in ride, making you much more effective.)
- Cost. (Shields aren't cheap. A top-tier 1-hander and a good shield costs as much as a great sword.)
- Kicking. (Can't block during kicks while using a shield.)

If you go 1-h no shield and can block decently, you can be incredibly effective. It's much harder to block your attacks as they are harder to see. You also move much faster. Weapon stun isn't a big issue if you know what to look out for and if you're fighting a stunner, you just have to block twice and you're good. If I was dueling often, not taking a shield would be the way to go. In battle though, it's such a great utility item to have around.

That being said, shield is fun and it works for me and my build. With my build, your average 2-hander will kill me in 2 hits. So, it's very important for me to not get hit at all.

[genric]

A shield can be really helpful because not everyone carries axes around. And if you invested a decent number of points into it you can block for a ridiculously long time, if you can't kill the person you are fighting you can at least hold till friends come. That's the big advantage I see to shields is you see them and don't want to deal with fighting them, in my case.

Also one handers are severely inferior to many other weapons and builds. Just because your attacks only stun once in awhile, you do minimal damage unless you using the pick, and you are out ranged.

I'm starting to think maybe everyone is using one handers wrong. Instead of a fighting class using it as a rogue class. Sneak around with your weapon and take our archers, sneak attack enemies and run, or help allies in trouble. I have to most success when I get the first stab in on my enemy or I am helping an ally. Fighting 1 v 1 against a two hander str just takes far far too long to do unless you get lucky momentum stabs in.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

You shouldn't need to know sweetspots, holds and footwork expertly to land hits with a 1h sword, it really hurts average skill/newer players who want to be a balanced shield class for mobility and survivability. You contrast this with how easy it is for anyone to pickup a 2h and get kills by swinging away and something is a bit off with 1h.

Translation: I should be able to take a 1handed sword, do awesome damage while not being very good at the game at all, put no effort into learning how to better my techniques or footwork while being able to move around as well as any agi build and survive like a str build.

Just added you to my list of "People I never need to read a post from ever again".

I love how you edited out the whole point to intentionally do so that people who didn't read his actual post and only the part you quoted and also already aren't that bright might agree with you...
...now, I know it's tough how your katana isn't extremely OP but please shut the fuck up... Any noob can pick up a my old friendtana or a Danish Greatsword and get a few lucky kills, people with the same amount of skill can pick up a shield and a 1h and be outspammed by a longdagger and 0wpf, end up glancing on pretty much everything, or just be S key'd by 2h S key heroes...
Now, next time you cry about how cav and shielders and generally anything that isn't a ninja agimy old friend is OP please at least don't intentionally fuck with the other persons arguments and posts to make it seem as if they meant something they clearly didn't.

Katanas are gay and so are ninjas.

I can fuck around with shit inside a quote too...

[Lactose_the_intolerant]

Maybe because 2h is as effective as 1h in close range and nearly better?

because 2h has more damage?

because 2H has more range?

because 2h has a stab you cans lide in even a close range?

[Ptolemy]

I love how you edited out the whole point to intentionally do so that people who didn't read his actual post and only the part you quoted and also already aren't that bright might agree with you...
...now, I know it's tough how your katana isn't extremely OP but please shut the fuck up... Any noob can pick up a my old friendtana or a Danish Greatsword and get a few lucky kills, people with the same amount of skill can pick up a shield and a 1h and be outspammed by a longdagger and 0wpf, end up glancing on pretty much everything, or just be S key'd by 2h S key heroes...
Now, next time you cry about how cav and shielders and generally anything that isn't a ninja agimy old friend is OP please at least don't intentionally fuck with the other persons arguments and posts to make it seem as if they meant something they clearly didn't.I can fuck around with shit inside a quote too...

The reason I edited it out was because that was the point where I stopped reading. Do you comment on stuff you don't read? I have however just gone back and read the entirety of the post and I still disagree with most of it.

You're right about the Danish, but the katana isn't as op as everyone seems to think. If it had the same length as the Danish, then yes, it would be brutal, but it doesn't. Those same S key heroes that you hate will fuck with a katana user too - do try to keep in mind that there are many 1h swords that are either the same or longer in length and since it only weighs 1, it gets stunned easily. Just because it's a fast weapon, doesn't mean that backpedaling doesn't make it too short. In fact the funny thing is that when people pick up my katana after killing me, I watch them, because it's fun to watch them fail with it - and they invariably do - I'm beginning to think that my weapons are cursed.

Also, what you call "fucking about with shit inside a quote", I call... quoting. The difference is, he actually said what I quoted, I did not say what you quoted. Although, you're right about that too.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

The reason I edited it out was because that was the point where I stopped reading. Do you comment on stuff you don't read? I have however just gone back and read the entirety of the post and I still disagree with most of it.

No I don't comment on stuff I don't read, however, I read more than the first line of something before deciding commenting... and your katana is not op, it's slightly above average like most none-greatsword 2h swords, you can still S key and use your 65+ range thrust, and you can still mindlessly spam swings without no thought behind it and never glance like all 2h can, 2h shouldn't be more noob friendly and better overall than all other playstyles.

[Ptolemy]

your katana is not op, it's slightly above average like most none-greatsword 2h swords, you can still S key and use your 65+ range thrust, and you can still mindlessly spam swings without no thought behind it and never glance like all 2h can, 2h shouldn't be more noob friendly and better overall than all other playstyles.

I never said it was UP, however. Aside from the fact that a +3 katana only has 17p on it's stab, which is laughable, it's not a terrible weapon. It's speed is good and it's damage is acceptable (taking into account that it's cut damage). It's length is bad however, so that does make it fairly well balanced. I'm just very aware that it costs near the highest levels for any 2h sword, when there are plenty better than it for their price.

I have to point out that it does glance, it's just a matter of how you swing it. If you do swing mindlessly, you will glance.

I've forgotten where this topic was going? Oh right, yeah... after playing with my 1h alt last night, using a hammer and getting some good results, I can only conclude that 1h swords should get a slight damage buff. The blunt and pierce weapons are fine.