Author Topic: Ideas to buff infantry  (Read 4493 times)

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Offline Joker86

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Ideas to buff infantry
« on: August 23, 2012, 03:48:36 pm »
+4
As some of you may have noticed, we already have several topics in the general discussion and the suggestion corner which are about cav+archers vs. infantry, one of the oldest topics in cRPG at all. Since the beginning of the game cavalry and archers made the life of many infantry players really hard and often demotivating, at least to a wider extend than vice versa (you don't see many archers or cavalry complain about infantry).

The reasons for this are manifold, but one of the most important (in my eyes) is the missing teamplay of infantry players. Most infantry players, even the very skilled ones, simply rush towards the closest targets to engage them, and they don't give a fuck about what the rest of the team does, which results in a lot of single headless rambo-lemmings, and single headless targets are the easiest prey for archers and cavalry. But as you can't change the players you must change the system. So here are my suggestions. Some of them can even get combined, and if someone posts another suggestion I will edit it here into my OP, so that we can have all suggestions together in one post.


1. Implement a commander system

Make a system where players follow the orders of a commander. The commander needs to be elected automatically, a player vote won't work. Next to this every player must have the system enabled by default when he enters the server, and there should be some little rewards for carrying out orders, at least in the period after implementing the system. When (if at all) the community changed its behaviour and plays the game more consciously, things can get changed. Actually this solution would aim to "change the players". The idea is to make infantry play together, and thus buff each other by complementing their abilities and nullifying their weaknesses.

2. Add an area buff to certain classes.

Make certain infantry classes grant buffs to other infantry classes, the best way would be that classes, which cover a weakness (e.g. shielders which cover 2hd players from projectiles) grant a buff which is most useful for the particular player (for 2hd that could be PS, for example). The bonus for several players should be cumulative, to a certain maximum, which shouldn't be too high. 2 or 3 points, I would say. This is another try to make infantry not only stick together, but also encourage players to look for classes which provide an effective combination with their own class. This buff should only apply FROM infantry players TO infantry players. If you think a skill buff would be too much, you could also think about a gold or XP buff. Or make it basing on kills the OTHER players around make. WHich would encourage players more to support each other, instead of seeing the others only as extras to your own one-man-show.

3. Change battle mode.

The main strength of infantry is conquering and holding terrain. With a battle mode where not killing but conquering and holding flags would be the goal, infantry would gain importance, and reward calculation could become easier. For example infantry could be rewarded most for being close to the flag and less for killing, while archers are rewarded more for killing and less for staying next to the flag.

4. Give infantry extra skills.

This suggestion is rather extreme. You can click a button on your character screen, which is called something like "Infantry training". Once pressed (and confirmed!) the way you can spend skills is changed. This change can't be made undone unless you retire or respec. The skills "Power Draw", "Power Throw", "Horse Archery" and "Riding" get locked or limited to a very low value (2 or 3 at the most). Already spent skill points get refunded, of course (only of the locked skills. This shouldn't be a cheap way to respec!). Same applies to the corresponding proficiencies like "Crossbows", "Bows" and "Throwing Weapons". Simultaneously you need only two governing attribute points to level the following skills: "Power Strike" "Athletics" "Iron Flesh" and "Shield". (You need to find a solution to prevent builds with unbreakable shields which can still hit pretty hard, though). Additionally the item weight will always be reduced by a certain percentage, something like 30-50%. This would make infantry the absolute kings of ground combat, and with the higher IF and ATH values they should be more difficult to kill.

Edit: a less extreme version of this suggestion would be that you have to choose either STR or AGI, and depending on your choice IF and PS or ATH and Shield become sheaper, the other two remain the same.

5. Rework armours

Currently, top tier armour is a rather bad choice. That's why I would suggest to make the armour values climb more exponentially to the top tier end of the list, while simultaneously lowering upkeep a bit. In exchange you can raise the item weight a bit. That way really heavy infantry could be viable again, and if wearing plate items armour values from 70 over 80 to perhaps close to 90 (with loomed items) could be reached. That way you could have heavy shock infantry at the front of your team, covering the rest against enemy arrows, even without shield. (Which would also, as beneficial effect, add a little bit of realism)


Tell me what you think about the suggestions, which you like or dislike, or whether you have own suggestions. Keep in mind that although the effects are similar, I want to focus on improving infantry, not making the other classes less effective. cRPG had enough nerfs, it's like the old story of a wobbling chair with heavily sawn of legs, because every time you saw off one another one has the wrong length. It's time to stop the sawing and put something under the shortest leg.

If we have enough suggestions, we can even start a poll.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2012, 04:32:44 pm by Joker86 »
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Molly

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Re: Ideas to buff infantry
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2012, 04:16:15 pm »
+1
Out of my stomach I'd say only the last point could be promising. Heavy Infantry should pack a punch but while being slow and barely touchable by archers, except arbalests. Like knockdown for mace, give arbalests something like "Plate penetration".

That is just after a quick read w/o giving it much thought. Just like the idea for a new class called "Heavy Inf" as described above. Slow but hard hitting, plate armor. Something that really needs to be ganked or shoot by "plate penetrating range" (Arbalest only). Sounds like a nice addition... Requirement for certain Plate armor could be raised to 27 strength or something to force low agi/ath and high ps/if.
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Offline sF_Guardian

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Re: Ideas to buff infantry
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2012, 04:17:10 pm »
0
No more fucking magic area bonuses please.
And also dont make melee for archers even harder, they`ll just run more.
And dont buff armor, please no, dun want old all tincan times back.
I don't want to give a feedback to molly neither i want to ban him,I wanted to give advise high authorities to take his admin rights.Panos you monkey wrench where would u put this topic enlighten me you cancer fuck.

Offline Joker86

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Re: Ideas to buff infantry
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2012, 04:31:16 pm »
0
No more fucking magic area bonuses please.
And also dont make melee for archers even harder, they`ll just run more.
And dont buff armor, please no, dun want old all tincan times back.

Well, the magic bonuses are not perfect, and I don't like them too. But you need something to motivate people to play together, instead of just next to each other. ANd if you don't like the magic attribute bonuses, we can still have the option of additional money or experience, because those two have always been earned "magically"  :wink:

Concerning the armours: it's not like suddenly everybody would be running around with them. Their weight gets increased, so people should become noticeably slower, and they would still have about 2k upkeep, which is a lot. Yes, the amount of tincans will raise, but at the moment we have almost NO tincans, so I see no problem there.

I am not a fan of the "make archers better in melee", because this makes them to infantry which can also engage on range, which is absolutely ridiculous. I think if a dedicated archer and a dedicated infantryman encounter each other in melee, the infantryman should have severe advantages, because on range infantry has 0 chances to kill the archer. Things have to stay fair.
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline sF_Guardian

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Re: Ideas to buff infantry
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2012, 04:35:55 pm »
+1
Well, the magic bonuses are not perfect, and I don't like them too. But you need something to motivate people to play together, instead of just next to each other. ANd if you don't like the magic attribute bonuses, we can still have the option of additional money or experience, because those two have always been earned "magically"  :wink:

Concerning the armours: it's not like suddenly everybody would be running around with them. Their weight gets increased, so people should become noticeably slower, and they would still have about 2k upkeep, which is a lot. Yes, the amount of tincans will raise, but at the moment we have almost NO tincans, so I see no problem there.

I am not a fan of the "make archers better in melee", because this makes them to infantry which can also engage on range, which is absolutely ridiculous. I think if a dedicated archer and a dedicated infantryman encounter each other in melee, the infantryman should have severe advantages, because on range infantry has 0 chances to kill the archer. Things have to stay fair.

... not get made worse for archers.
I don't want to give a feedback to molly neither i want to ban him,I wanted to give advise high authorities to take his admin rights.Panos you monkey wrench where would u put this topic enlighten me you cancer fuck.

Offline CrazyCracka420

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Re: Ideas to buff infantry
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2012, 04:55:22 pm »
0
I think your first point is the only valid one.  I don't think infantry need a buff.  I feel just fine when I'm on the ground as my 18/18 hybrid cav/infantry build.  Even when I drop my shield and only run with a polearm.

The game seems balanced very well between classes, to me.  Every class has strengths, and every class has weaknesses.  The goal should be to expose your enemies weaknesses to your strengths.  If your weaknesses are being exploited, that doesn't mean your class needs a buff, it means you're doing something wrong. 

Fix your playstyle, don't ask for nerfs and buffs.
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Re: Ideas to buff infantry
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2012, 05:10:06 pm »
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How about we just up the horizontal turn speed radius up to 180 degrees frontal (at least overheads) and improve melee weapon speed like has already been planned. 

That and it'd be nice to see stationary type move that could stop horses in their tracks with weapons over a certain length.  Horses already have an extremely unfair advantage.  Fastest speed, longest melee weapon reach 95% of the time, instant kill moves (couching), etc..

The horses themselves don't suffer any realistic effects from getting spooked in combat, collision damage from hitting trees/buildings at full speed, etc...

yet somehow they are still rewarded with an unblockable instant-kill move
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Re: Ideas to buff infantry
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2012, 05:15:08 pm »
0
I'm not a big fan of nerfs and buffs, but as a cavalry lancer I would totally consent to them re-working blocking from horse back.  Especially without a shield.  Your lance shouldn't be a forcefield to protect your horse from taking damage.

And although I do agree that horses in the middle ages were more powerful in battle (biting, kicking, and knocking people unconscious when they ran into you, or possibly even killing you outright if it hit you in the right spots), they were also more vulnerable.  They were bred to be controlled by the rider, but they still had minds of their own.  They would spook if shot with an arrow (reports of horses bucking riders after one shot, or even turning and running uncontrollably back through their own ranks of infantry). 

The games certainly far from real world realism, and I don't think it ever could hope to achieve that.  So you just have to make do with what we have.  If you want to implement changes to make cavalry more realistic, you'd have to counter it with making changes to every class to be more realistic, since they are all affected by each other's play styles, strengths, and weaknesses.
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Offline Spook Island

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Re: Ideas to buff infantry
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2012, 05:20:22 pm »
-1
I'm not a big fan of nerfs and buffs, but as a cavalry lancer I would totally consent to them re-working blocking from horse back.  Especially without a shield.  Your lance shouldn't be a forcefield to protect your horse from taking damage.

And although I do agree that horses in the middle ages were more powerful in battle (biting, kicking, and knocking people unconscious when they ran into you, or possibly even killing you outright if it hit you in the right spots), they were also more vulnerable.  They were bred to be controlled by the rider, but they still had minds of their own.  They would spook if shot with an arrow (reports of horses bucking riders after one shot, or even turning and running uncontrollably back through their own ranks of infantry). 

The games certainly far from real world realism, and I don't think it ever could hope to achieve that.  So you just have to make do with what we have.  If you want to implement changes to make cavalry more realistic, you'd have to counter it with making changes to every class to be more realistic, since they are all affected by each other's play styles, strengths, and weaknesses.

This disparity of realism between cav riders and every other class in the game probably couldn't be any further distanced at this point.
They really aren't even horses the way they play.  They are armored medium speed motorcycles that have seatbelts and air bags.
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Offline Vkvkvk

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Re: Ideas to buff infantry
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2012, 07:40:45 pm »
+2
This disparity of realism between cav riders and every other class in the game probably couldn't be any further distanced at this point.
They really aren't even horses the way they play.  They are armored medium speed motorcycles that have seatbelts and air bags.

They're also all-terrain and can climb ladders and roll people people over on roofs like it ain't no thang.

Offline HUtH

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Re: Ideas to buff infantry
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2012, 08:19:39 pm »
0
I agree with 1, 2 and 3 points - these are great and generally obvious ideas(like commander system), but not with 4 - because this makes infantry some uber-class; and not with 5 - because armour overhaul should look differently and adding weight would make eg. Flambergers useless. Plate armours(those full but half and black armours too) need a buff against projectiles, sword-slash and weak pierce weapons, but other heavy armours seem to be ok, overall.
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Re: Ideas to buff infantry
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2012, 08:24:49 pm »
+2
Why does infantry need a buff. Explain that first.
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Offline Cup1d

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Re: Ideas to buff infantry
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2012, 08:33:16 pm »
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Implement skill for armor, as requirement only, without any bonuses. Looks like infantry have too many free skillpoints.

Offline HUtH

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Re: Ideas to buff infantry
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2012, 08:59:17 pm »
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Implement skill for armor, as requirement only, without any bonuses. Looks like infantry have too many free skillpoints.
if that skill would decrease greatly WPF penalty and a bit movement speed penalty from armour weight - why not? It'd be smth like shield skill, not bad.
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Re: Ideas to buff infantry
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2012, 09:14:39 pm »
0
No more fucking magic area bonuses please.
And also dont make melee for archers even harder, they`ll just run more.
And dont buff armor, please no, dun want old all tincan times back.

There never was a ''all tincan time''
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