Poll

Should free wpf points be removed an be placed in the wm gain.

Yes.
No.

Author Topic: Its time.  (Read 6969 times)

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Offline Viriathus

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Re: Its time.
« Reply #90 on: August 28, 2012, 11:46:00 pm »
0
Hi, im just a noob to the game, but i have played many other games, and this i can tell; the more substancial changes you make to the game, the less likely for a player to continue enjoying and take it seriously.

As i played more, i wondered how can some one get bored of such a fantastic mod! well i found the awnser now.

Cheers.

Offline Fartface

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Re: Its time.
« Reply #91 on: August 29, 2012, 03:36:52 pm »
0
If this suggesion makes it ,  I will respec to 15/27 with 9 wm 9 ath 5 ps 5 if. that's going to be so mutch more OP than my STR build.
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Offline Mr_Oujamaflip

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Re: Its time.
« Reply #92 on: August 29, 2012, 08:12:17 pm »
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I dunno, rather than changing WPF points I'd rather change the arc at which WPF becomes effective.

Also if it's buffing Agi we're talking about add a reduction in rain and slope penalty to athletics points.

Offline rustyspoon

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Re: Its time.
« Reply #93 on: August 29, 2012, 09:05:43 pm »
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WPF is fine as is and doesn't need to be changed. Generally people who complain about this think that str builds are overpowered, which really shows how much they don't understand the underlying mechanics of this game. They often just quote percentages instead of applying real-world calculations.

When it comes to damage, the two most important things are initial weapon damage and damage type. They are FAR more important than PS. A build with high PS does not do tons more damage than a build with low PS.

As an example, I made a few different builds and punched them into this damage calculator. http://alpha-lider19.ru/MB/ I like to use this calculator for these examples as I find this calculator to be more accurate.

The three builds are 15/21, 18/18 and 39/3. Each build is wearing no armor and is using a polearm that does 34 blunt damage. Their opponent has 70hp and is wearing 60 armor.

All of these attacks ignore speed bonus and held attack bonus. They are also body shots.

The 15/21 build would kill his opponent in 3-6 hits. That is an average of 4.5 hits which rounds to 5.
The 18/18 build would kill his opponent in 4 hits.
The 39/3 build would kill his opponent in 2.5 hits, which rounds to 3.

With a blunt weapon, the build with 5 ps only needs (on average) 2 more hits to kill the opponent then the guy with 13 ps.

Now if this was conducted with a cut weapon, there would be a much larger difference that would heavily favor the 13 ps.

Strength builds do 2 things in this game: they increase your ability to take hits and they make cut weapons more viable for general use.
Agility builds give you more flexibility and make you harder to hit. You can tear people apart with a 6/33 spear build if you know what you're doing.

WPF in this game is for a few specific purposes:

Ranged Accuracy
Increasing swing speed of slow weapons (WPF affects low weapon speed weapons more than high weapon speed weapons)
Hybrids

If you reduce WPF for non-agility builds, you're just placing a penalty that doesn't need to be there that has the potential to limit build diversity even more. At the end of the day, balanced builds are best anyway. This just seems like a pointless change.
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Offline Elindor

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Re: Its time.
« Reply #94 on: August 29, 2012, 11:23:59 pm »
+2
Interesting results Rusty...

Strength builds do 2 things in this game: they increase your ability to take hits and they make cut weapons more viable for general use.

I do almost wonder though if the HP gain from strength should fall off above some level. 
True strength builds can get to amazing HP levels that Im afraid are neither balanced nor realistic. 

And its somewhere between the increased damage, the only minor decrease in speed, and the rather large increase in HP that it all doesn't come out balanced probably.
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Offline Cup1d

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Re: Its time.
« Reply #95 on: August 30, 2012, 05:19:17 pm »
-1
Looks like Tzar decide to bitch a little about free wpf only after starting hybrid char. How predictable.

Offline oprah_winfrey

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Re: Its time.
« Reply #96 on: August 30, 2012, 05:25:57 pm »
-1
Looks like Tzar decide to bitch a little about free wpf only after starting hybrid char. How predictable.

Wouldn't a hybrid char. want free wpf?

Offline rustyspoon

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Re: Its time.
« Reply #97 on: August 30, 2012, 05:46:41 pm »
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The devs already said that they are going to flatten the WPF curve, which worries me a bit.

Anyone who remembers when WPF carried over a bit between generations can understand why. Fast weapons, combined with low ping and high WPF can get pretty ridiculous.

Needless to say I've already stacked up on WM in anticipation for the change. That combined with my 20 ping and 100 speed weapon will be quite nasty I'm sure.
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Offline Falka

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Re: Its time.
« Reply #98 on: August 30, 2012, 07:00:56 pm »
-1
The devs already said that they are going to flatten the WPF curve, which worries me a bit.

There's no need to worry. Planned time of implementation - December 2010  8-)

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Offline Turboflex

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Re: Its time.
« Reply #99 on: August 30, 2012, 07:33:33 pm »
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Interesting results Rusty...

I do almost wonder though if the HP gain from strength should fall off above some level. 
True strength builds can get to amazing HP levels that Im afraid are neither balanced nor realistic. 

And its somewhere between the increased damage, the only minor decrease in speed, and the rather large increase in HP that it all doesn't come out balanced probably.

I agree... The best adjustment they could do with a STR/AGI/WPF balance is to nerf the HP str builds can acquire, maybe put a curve on HP past 60.

This is the biggest imbalance, guys like Sosarian Knight who have like 90 HP, and 80+ armor with looms. That can take like a dozen hits including glances.

Toning down HP stacking would go a long way to flattening out STR/AGI imbalance, which besides from the HP factor aren't too far apart.

Balancing it out with WPF seems like a bad idea. Like Rusty said if you boost WPF so people can achieve 200+ you are boosting the marginal ability of people to be super spammer with 100+ speed weps which does not add anything positive to gameplay. If you nerf WPF in a way that forces people to take more WM, you may be putting a bit of a burden on STR builds, maybe force them to take a bit less IF, but you are really nerfing the hell out of hybrids, who already design their builds with built-in nerfs.

Offline Tzar

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Re: Its time.
« Reply #100 on: August 30, 2012, 07:49:16 pm »
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Plz stop thinking that i asked for a wpf buff or anything its bullshit all i said was that they should remove the free wpf not buff wpf.....

Its time to remove the free wpf gain from lvl and place the gain in form of wm points.

STR no brainers have had enough fun its time to balance things out.

Wanna be able to 1 hit people an take a gazillion hits you should be swinging your weapon like an old lady.

Agi builds wouldn't get more wpf with my suggestion nothing would change only the fact that retarded build with 0 agi investment wouldn't be given a 117 free wpf by just lvling up.

Also imho i don't think only stacking str should be even viable in the first place.

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Offline Cepeshi

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Re: Its time.
« Reply #101 on: August 30, 2012, 08:00:02 pm »
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I dont get it why people keep bitching about str hp. Come on guys, with agi you get possibility to outmanevuer str crutchers. I played both agi and str oriented builds, each has its own pros and cons, but please, just do not mess up. 15/21 riders would be quite useless, dying to even fly, if they nerfed HP from STR. You really want paperback people? Me not.


Back prebigpatch, there were people with 200+ wpf and loads of str/agi, as you could level up pretty high. There were plated people running like Ussein Bolts with flamberges on their back, mauls in their hands, crossbow ready to wtfpwn you, that was quite battling. Taking one of those behemoths down felt like a friggin achievement.

But anyhow, i do not agree with free wpf removal, i do play WMless char atm  :mrgreen:

Offline Turboflex

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Re: Its time.
« Reply #102 on: August 30, 2012, 08:52:54 pm »
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Plz stop thinking that i asked for a wpf buff or anything its bullshit all i said was that they should remove the free wpf not buff wpf.....

What you said was dumb, that's why people are talking about other stuff.

Remove the leveling WPF and you are nerfing hybrids more than STR builds, STR builds will just go 30-9  or 33-6 and take 2-3 WM and still be fine with 100 WPF but hybrids will be forced to go 18-18 to get minimum 6 WM to be able to get to over 100/100 wpf.

Offline Tzar

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Re: Its time.
« Reply #103 on: August 30, 2012, 08:56:35 pm »
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What you said was dumb, that's why people are talking about other stuff.

Remove the leveling WPF and you are nerfing hybrids more than STR builds, STR builds will just go 30-9  or 33-6 and take 2-3 WM and still be fine with 100 WPF but hybrids will be forced to go 18-18 to get minimum 6 WM to be able to get to over 100/100 wpf.

Im a hybrid and tbh with my suggestion i would be just fine since the lost wpf from lvling would be placed in my wm points.

6 wm would give me the same wpf that i have now if the wpf buff would take place.
I've never played a server where people split up as much or as often as on EU1.  No wonder range is having a field day.

Offline Turboflex

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Re: Its time.
« Reply #104 on: August 30, 2012, 09:03:00 pm »
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So what's the point besides forcing str to take 2-3 wm which a lot of str builds might already have? doesn't change much