Its time.

[Nehvar]

Its time to remove the free wpf gain from lvl and place the gain in form of wm points.

STR no brainers have had enough fun its time to balance things out.

Wanna be able to 1 hit people an take a gazillion hits you should be swinging your weapon like an old lady.

Yes or no  :

Yes.  Builds sporting 10+ power strike should not also have 111 weapon proficiency at no weapon master investment.  A change like you suggested might make siege more enjoyable for non-STR builds.  +1

NO.

As a principle, I disagree with every solution that may lead to reducing the diversity of builds. STOP 18/21 and 21/18 dominance! NO PASARAN!

Playing xbow, just for record.

You won't need six or seven weapon master to get ~111 weapon proficiency.

[Shub]

 "I disagree with every solution that may lead to reducing the diversity of builds. " - agree


"Buff hybrids and you'll see more build diversity.

Btw. even with 1 wpf your swings are fast enough (for 2H mostly), only problem is reduced damage."  Not true imo . Only true for some weps not all in class. so generalization here is inappropriate

[Tzar]

I don't think corwin read my suggestion.

Only full retard builds which involves nothing but spamming str would lack wpf everyone else would keep their current wpf.

A change like you suggested might make siege more enjoyable for non-STR builds.  +1

My thoughts exactly sick of behemoths which can take 1 mw jarid to the face or 6/7 katana swings. an only need to hit you once....

[Elindor]

Inb4 NA/Baddies shitstorm hits the thread 

Hey im NA and I FULLY support this    NA isnt all str whores.
--> 21/21 w MW Longsword

Anyhow, IMHO those who have a invested in some WM (like myself) dont need to get any faster per say....its that the choice to not invest ANYTHING in agi/wm should yield a pretty slow character - slower than they are now.

Just as a character with 0 PS hits for pretty low damage.

[Leshma]

Only full retard builds which involves nothing but spamming str would lack wpf everyone else would keep their current wpf.

Suggested that two times already. Basic idea is to allow subpar wpf with 1 WM (about 60), 120 wpf with 2 WM, 160 or 175 with 3 WM and that would be the wpf limit. If you put more points into WM, let's say 6, you can have max wpf in two categories, let's say 1H and throwing.

[Elindor]

Could be that first couple points in WM got you back to the 110 wpf that people now get from leveling, and after that WM resumes its normal course....

So people need maybe 3 WM to get 110 wpf.

[Leshma]

2 WM for 120 wpf is fine, really. You can have 33/6 which gives you lower damage output than 36/3 build. Also in order to put 2 points in WM you'll have 2 less IF, not that noticeable but better than it's now.

With this system, some builds, like pure 30/9 build might seem too OP. Mainly because they could have 175 wpf in one category and 10 PS.

But they can be easily countered by 18/18 6 WM, full wpf 1H/thrower. Hybrids get the biggest buff that way.

Only full str, no wm build, will be nerfed. Not removed, just not viable like it's now. But everything else would be buffed big time.

Also, build diversity is great on paper atm. Problem is that certain builds are so much better than the others. That's why actual build diversity is pretty bad atm. Everyone is using cookie cutter builds.

What they need to do is to actually give us less possible build diversity in theory, but balance those remaining builds so that they are all equally viable and desirable. Easier to do with smaller build pool, what we have now and poor build balance is just proof of that.

[Vex.]

Time to favor agi builds?

Alright let's just start with the advantages of a dedicated str my old friend.
High dmg and high hp, fair enough?
Archers and other ranged are so god damn weak when they hit. Rus bow & bodkins 5-15% each hit (atleast on me)
Takes low bump damage from ponies

Disadvantage
Can't run away from a gangbang.
Can't chase archers down.
Can't do hiltslashes.
Feint's are useless because of the slow swings.
They are easily spammed.
Can't dodge couches by jumping away or running away (due the slow movement speed)

Alright lets go with the agi builds advantage
Can hiltslash like a boss.
Can feint like a mad lama looking for grass in alaska
Can run away from ganking easily
Can fight 4 ++ enemies at once
Can chase down archers

disadvantage:
Die quickly if you don't block that well
Ranged do alot of damage if they hit you in the freaking left toe.
Bump damage hurts like a bitch! (but easily dodged if you have battle awareness)

And onehitting happens alot if you have around 13-14 PS and you have speedbonus.
The enemy target should have less than 50 body armor to onehit him.
Or you could always aim after the face which doesnt require more than 11 PS to onehit him if he has less than 45 head armor.

In my opinion its much easier to play as a balanced build than a pure str build.

[Leshma]

In my opinion its much easier to play as a balanced build than a pure str build.

No, it's not.

[Vex.]

No, it's not.

How do you know leshma, you have only played as a fuck high agi build who always goes on the flank to die alone xD
Solo hero right there 

With a balanced build i have a K/D on 3,7 (21/18 build)
With a str build i have K/D on around 3. (42/3 build)
So yes lesh boy, its much easier to play with the agi.
Str builds require so much more blocking skills and place yourself in the battlefield than a agi build which can just run away from the danger.
If you dont have much ath and do one bad choice, you're dead.

[Tears of Destiny]

At level 30, for anyone who is curious on what losing out on the 250 points will do:

WM: Old-wpf#(remainder)/New-wpf#(remainder)
0: 111(4)/1(0)
1: 116(5)/31(0)
2: 123(3)/60(1)
3: 130(4)/80(2)

4: 138(3)/97(1)
5: 146(5)/111(4)
6: 154(9)/124(6)
7: 163(5)/137(1)

8: 172(0)/148(7)
9: 180(8)/159(9)
10: 189(2)/170(4)
11: 197(9)/180(8)

[Leshma]

I've played 36/3 build wearing peasant armor which could survive 3 good hits, up to five hits actually. Hit points are what matters in this game.

If I had armor I could survive even more shit.

Athletics is pretty much useless whenever it's raining.

Btw. everything you listed as disadvantages of strength builds, is true but only in battle mode and only if you're loner. Having bunch of friends with you pretty much eliminates most of these issues.

In siege you need ath to get faster from point A to point B, otherwise it's not really that useful.

[Vex.]

5 hits in a peasant armor, thats bullshit lesh and you know it.

Damage values
Minimum: 41
Average: 47
Maximum: 53

Thats the damage of a standar 18 str build with 150 wpf against 20 body armor
And with a 36/3 build with 12 IF you have about 95 HP. Then you should be dead in 2 hits. If you survived 5 hits, that must have been against a peasant.
So no, body armor mixed with HP is the most effective.

And you can easily take a shitload of hits if you add iron flesh in ur build...
Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)
Strength: 21
Agility: 18
Hit points: 64 (if you add iron flesh)

Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)
Strength: 36
Agility: 3
Hit points: 89 (with 9 Iron flesh)

The difference is 25 HP which means you can take 1 extra hit with a str build (if you have over 60 body armor)

[sF_Guardian]

5 hits in a peasant armor, thats bullshit lesh and you know it.

Damage values
Minimum: 41
Average: 47
Maximum: 53

Thats the damage of a standar 18 str build with 150 wpf against 20 body armor
And with a 36/3 build with 12 IF you have about 95 HP. Then you should be dead in 2 hits. If you survived 5 hits, that must have been against a peasant.
So no, body armor mixed with HP is the most effective.

And you can easily take a shitload of hits if you add iron flesh in ur build...
Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)
Strength: 21
Agility: 18
Hit points: 64 (if you add iron flesh)

Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)
Strength: 36
Agility: 3
Hit points: 89 (with 9 Iron flesh)

The difference is 25 HP which means you can take 1 extra hit with a str build (if you have over 60 body armor)

Theese calculations do not fit with the reality on the battlefield man.
If you use a bit of footwork you will never get that high dmg!

[Spa_geh_tea]

No offense to you, but this idea is crap.

Wpf buffs speed AND DAMAGE.

So, if str players had low wpf or none. Their str will be underpowered to the point where and 18-18 does nearly the same damage.

 An alternative solution is that wpf does not improve Damage or reduce it and only effects swing speed. Keep in mind this will still improve high wpf damage due to speed bonus.

2ndly whoever said buff wpf points so you can go to 180+, clearly has not been in crpg long enough. Long enough to remeber when players could and wielded 98 speed weapons at 180+ hitting players faster than the server can relay the animations. Yeah it was a shit show, worse then longsword and katana spammers of today.

That is why there is the hard wpf curve we have today. So, thank the devs for it because it improved gameplay significantly.