Author Topic: What has cRPG come to?  (Read 27292 times)

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Offline Leshma

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Re: What has cRPG come to?
« Reply #345 on: August 28, 2012, 04:49:31 pm »
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Heh, archers.

Most archers are OP only in big numbers and only against shieldless infantry.

Truly OP archers are level 35 and have 18/27 builds with MW Rus bow and MW Bodkin arrows.

Various limitations are the reason why cRPG battle is kinda crappy atm. Start reverting some of those changes and cRPG battle will become fun again.


Offline Joker86

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Re: What has cRPG come to?
« Reply #346 on: August 28, 2012, 05:03:20 pm »
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Heh, archers.

Most archers are OP only in big numbers and only against shieldless infantry.

Truly OP archers are level 35 and have 18/27 builds with MW Rus bow and MW Bodkin arrows.

Various limitations are the reason why cRPG battle is kinda crappy atm. Start reverting some of those changes and cRPG battle will become fun again.

Actually I agree that further nerfs are not recommendable, but I wouldn't revert the nerfs we already had, because they seem quite reasonable to me. In a very distant future we can talk about buffing archers (all aspects - accuracy, shot speed, damage) and cavalry (horses and their survivability, especially the armoured ones, and lowering upkeep), but for this we need some fundamental changes in the behaviour of all players on the servers. I am mainly aiming on an improved use of tactics by all players, not only clan players. It works in other games, too, so why not in cRPG? (Okay, the incredibly and above-internet-average retarded community could be a reason  :rolleyes:  :lol: )

I would like to redirect you to my little topic, because I'd like to know what you think about the ideas. It's a try to use only buffs, instead of nerfs, to get the fun level of playing infantry on the same level like playing cav or archer.
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Micah

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Re: What has cRPG come to?
« Reply #347 on: August 28, 2012, 05:16:26 pm »
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Various limitations are the reason why cRPG battle is kinda crappy atm. Start reverting some of those changes and cRPG battle will become fun again.
well spoken indeed ...
Archers  are not running because they want to in many cases (tenne, blackbow).
The currently few archery builds plus their similar (rather equal) setups are caused by the past archery nerfs which FORCED archers to play like they do now with low variety.
rebuff low tier bows
reduce armor wpf penalty for archery
make arrows use 0 slots
and you will soon see archers with better armor, better weapons going melee instead of running - because they cant do the my old friend run in medium/medium heavy armor and they have a good weapon in their backpack. To limit highspeed archers exploit , make 1 PD for 4 STR instead of 3 or come up with bettter solution.
Yet afterall, all current archery QQ was caused by the past archery QQ plus the devs overcommit to nerfs which cant change the game physics from existing.
But i doubt that will happen ... because it would propably require a full char reset now after this massacre lol

EDIT:
I would like to redirect you to my little topic, because I'd like to know what you think about the ideas. It's a try to use only buffs, instead of nerfs, to get the fun level of playing infantry on the same level like playing cav or archer.
Joker, you know that i really like tactics too and i like some of the ideas but the OP is simply to big to say anything propper to that, sorry ;(
« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 05:46:50 pm by Micah »
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Offline Joker86

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Re: What has cRPG come to?
« Reply #348 on: August 28, 2012, 05:59:04 pm »
+1
well spoken indeed ...
Archers  are not running because they want to in many cases (tenne, blackbow).
The currently few archers builds plus their similar (rather equal) setups are caused by the past archery nerfs which FORCED archers to play like they do now with low variety.
rebuff low tier bows
reduce armor wpf penalty for archery
make arrows use 0 slots
and you will soon see archers with better armor, better weapons going melee instead of running - because they cant do the my old friend run in medium/medium heavy armor and they have a good weapon in their backpack. To limit highspeed archers exploit , make 1 PD for 4 STR instead of 3 or come up with bettter solution.
Yet afterall, all current archery QQ was caused by the past archery QQ plus the devs overcommit to nerfs which cant change the game physics from existing.
But i doubt that will happen ...

I don't think this will be the solution.

I think most people who are complaining about the inf vs. archer gameplay are not complaining about the "effectivity" of an archer (his damage, his accuracy, his rate of fire, whatever), they are complaining about two things:

a) kiting
b) the amount of archers

Any change which aims towards reducing the motivation of archers to run instead of fighting by improving their melee capabilities will not work, or will only be a sub-par quality solution.

Archers fight over distance, infantry fights in melee. Having archers to fight in melee almost as good as infantry would mean, that infantry would have to fight over range almost as good as archers (to keep things fair). As infantry doesn't fight over range at all, the only conclusion would be that archers should have the ranged effectivity of a stone throwing peasant. Because not fighting over range at all is almost as good as throwing stones as peasant. You get the point?

Don't try to merge two classes into one. Archers would be reduced to some infantry/archer hybrids, and the game would lose an entire class. Just keep it like in all those strategy games, like Warcraft. You have your human foot soldiers and the dwarven gunners. Just don't let the enemy Orcs get in melee range to your gunners, or they are gone. That's the balance of the game. It would be highly unfair if the melee fighter could be killed with good chances while approaching his target, and then, when he finally made it, his target has still good chances beating him in melee. I don't know about you guys, but when I play the sitting duck for a bunch of archers, but still, with some clever behaviour and a bit of luck manage to reach them, I want to be able to slaughter them. Everything else would be unbalanced.

Now to sum everything above up: archers engage over distance, that's why they should suck in melee. That's why it is okay if archers are afraid of fighting in melee.

"But how am I supposed to kill archers then as infantry?" people might ask. And it's a perfectly valid question, and we can imagine a lot of ideas from higher ATH for infantry to high item weight for bows and arrows, but to be honest, I think being faster than infantry is an important part of the archer role, so I wouldn't change this either.

I'd rather have people concentrate on following question: why should infantry always have to kill the archers?

In my eyes, the gamemode is the problem. In battle infantry DOES have to kill archers and cav, but can't unless the classes allow it, while infantry doesn't necessariliy have to "allow" archers and cav to kill them. That's where the frustration comes from. Both archers and cavalry are much more flexible in who they can engage and who they want to evade. Even if you lower their effectivity accordingly, they will always be the "acting", the "active" parts of a team, while infantry will always only remain the "reacting", the "passive" part. This is why many players complain about archers or cavalry, although both classes are not really OP. It's a "gameplay feeling" issue, not a balance issue. Point b) from above, the amount of archers, is only a reaction to point a). Change a), and b) will change as well.

If you change the goal of the game from killing everybody (which is a really plain goal) to something more interesting, like conquering the majority of all flags on the map or something like that, things would change. It would move infantry into the key role, as it is the best class for conquering and holding terrain. Archers and cavalry could only accomplish the objective of capturing a flag if the enemy infantry allows it (by not being at said flag). Which would turn infantry into the acting, the archers and cavalry into the reacting elements (it would be still fine for archers and cavalry, as they can still enjoy their higher flexibility). The two latter classes would become pure support classes, which they are supposed to be, while infantry would now truly become the main class to win battles. In (almost) any scenario possible, which contains conquering flags.

That's why I say you need to replace (yes, replace, not complement) battle mode with conquest mode. It would solve so many problems!
« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 06:12:53 pm by Joker86 »
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Micah

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Re: What has cRPG come to?
« Reply #349 on: August 28, 2012, 07:27:42 pm »
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(click to show/hide)
agreed in many points BUT
You propably will not be able to sell tactical depth like in a RTS or tactic shooter to a FPS/RPG community...
Make sidequests out of complex targets ,make new tools and features  out of strategic teamwork overhaul and you might get through with it but a straight tactic oriented mode will only result in crash of the playerbase from role players side. Additionally a commander role can add to a metagame change towards more tactical depth i agree.
Anyhow the plain goal has to stay , i doubt you will sell a CTF or take and hold or conquer easily , besides the huge effords that would result for rewriting/creating a whole new game mode involving many ballance changes. The charm of cRPG is still the feeling to have somewhat of a RPG in FPS appearance connected with the open world strategus component.
I recently wrote in another thread that the new score system is nothing else but a sidequest/minigame system to collect points with ( and it should be proclaimed as such imo) . It is in heavy need of better defined and more role/class specific enhancements before being able to be connected to an XP/gold gain. ...
Anyhow, score system plus some new  tactical features plus a commanding role/ladder system could add alot to more depth and tactics in the game.

Regarding the archer ROLE in cRPG ... there is a huge difference between ballancing a strategy game and a role playing game; we dont want to lose freedom of costumizability but win more. to define an archer as uncapable in melee fight is a strategy game trait not a role play trait.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 07:32:05 pm by Micah »
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Offline Swaggart

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Re: What has cRPG come to?
« Reply #350 on: August 28, 2012, 07:31:53 pm »
-1
well spoken indeed ...
Archers  are not running because they want to in many cases (tenne, blackbow).
The currently few archery builds plus their similar (rather equal) setups are caused by the past archery nerfs which FORCED archers to play like they do now with low variety.
rebuff low tier bows
reduce armor wpf penalty for archery
make arrows use 0 slots

No thanks. This would make archers lethal from range and in melee, removing the need for infantry entirely.

Offline Joker86

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Re: What has cRPG come to?
« Reply #351 on: August 28, 2012, 07:35:40 pm »
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Anyhow the plain goal has to stay , i doubt you will sell a CTF or take and hold or conquer easily , besides the huge effords that would result for rewriting/creating a whole new game mode involving many ballance changes. The charm of cRPG is still the feeling to have somewhat of a RPG in FPS appearance connected with the open world strategus component.

Well, then I don't know how the Battlefield series could become that popular, if FPS players don't like Conquest and the like.  :wink:

And the gamemode doesn't change anything on the "RPG in FPS appearance connected with the open world strategus component".  :?

I think a game which has different classes should automatically enforce teamplay, so that the classes complement each other, and a whole new shift evolves, the metagame. But apparently still many players think that the different classes are nothing else than the different guns in a Quake- or Unreal Tournament-like game. But it's not like the devs can't change this with the proper features (commander mode, different battle modes, etc.)...  :wink:
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Micah

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Re: What has cRPG come to?
« Reply #352 on: August 28, 2012, 07:36:57 pm »
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No thanks. This would make archers lethal from range and in melee, removing the need for infantry entirely.
in first place , noone said to make archers leathal in melee
secondly you are completely neglecting the role play component where archers WANT to play archer with melee fallback
furthermore you need to think what you want ... you want an immoble naked archer with no melee capability and fallback ? srsly ...
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Offline DaveUKR

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Re: What has cRPG come to?
« Reply #353 on: August 28, 2012, 07:37:37 pm »
+1
reduce armor wpf penalty for archery
make arrows use 0 slots
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Offline Swaggart

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Re: What has cRPG come to?
« Reply #354 on: August 28, 2012, 07:40:25 pm »
-1
What you are suggesting means an archer can grab a Rus Bow, two stacks of Bodkins and then fall back on a Greatsword when he's done pew pewing. Coupled with the reduced armor penalty for archery thereby making archers require less WPF for accuracy means then can dump those points into their greatsword swinging.

Yeah, that would make them pretty lethal from range, and pretty lethal in melee.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Oh and I don't mind when archers kite. Perfectly valid tactic that plays to their strenghts. Except of course when its the last remaining archer kiting 8 people but the rules have covered that.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 07:47:43 pm by Swaggart »

Offline Micah

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Re: What has cRPG come to?
« Reply #355 on: August 28, 2012, 07:51:00 pm »
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Oh and I don't mind when archers kite. Perfectly valid tactic that plays to their strenghts. Except of course when its the last remaining archer kiting 8 people but the rules have covered that.
well ok youre not one of the guys complaining about kiting which is however the majority of complaints and the heaviest ballancing issue it appears...
My point remains that archers are forced to do one single build and setup right now which isnt nice ...
« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 08:05:28 pm by Micah »
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Offline Swaggart

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Re: What has cRPG come to?
« Reply #356 on: August 28, 2012, 07:54:57 pm »
-1
No, like I said in the edit, I don't mind kiting archers.

To be perfectly clear: I fucking hate kiting archers because I'm a shieldless 2Her. But it's a perfectly valid tactic as they are playing to their strengths while limiting mine.

Offline Micah

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Re: What has cRPG come to?
« Reply #357 on: August 28, 2012, 07:55:43 pm »
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No, like I said in the edit, I don't mind kiting archers.
i noticed and edited that sorry "^_^
« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 08:07:25 pm by Micah »
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Offline Falka

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Re: What has cRPG come to?
« Reply #358 on: August 28, 2012, 10:04:13 pm »
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Offline Thtb

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Re: What has cRPG come to?
« Reply #359 on: August 28, 2012, 10:09:11 pm »
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Played CRPG since it first came out.

This is prop. the 2end worst gameplay low so far.

There has been a worse time, but its still pretty bad.