Thoughts about marketing.

[Kafein]

Theres no such thing as a 'natural value'. Things have the value people attach to them, no more, no less. And the value that people attach to one generation of grinding is roughly 600k ingame crpg gold.

It is funny how little facts of life are present in all things, even on a generated market on a computer game. 

That's not a fact of life, that's nearly a law of physics 

[Ninja_Khorin]

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There you go. If you understand that, you will understand why this...

But everyone would be willing to pay that if they could. The issue isn't willing it or not, the issue is being able to.
Of course I'd like to pay 450k for a loom point, but I -and I'm guessing, a lot of other players- don't have the possibility to pay that much gold, nor the time to play that much time to retire and accumulate generations.

That's what I'm pointing out, loom points can only circulate through the same hands/people.

...makes no sense.

Here's a hint: Limited supply.
Another hint:

Of course I'd like to pay 450k for a loom point, but I -and I'm guessing, a lot of other players- don't have the possibility to pay that much gold, nor the time to play that much time to retire and accumulate generations.

One last hint: If everyone would have time to play enough to get their looms, the price for them would be ridiculously low. But the price remains high because ^^^^^

To make looms cheap, they would have to be in infinite supply, for example an NPC that sells them for a set price. Naturally, people who play the market can cause a bubble which inflates the prices.

[22nd_deprav]

I don't think your graph applies for this : I think It implies the only way to get the "demanded thing" (loom points) is to buy it (correct me if I'm wrong), yet in this market you can product it yourself by retiring (the only way of production), means the supplier and the customers are the same people (thus who can enter the market) since they're are the only ones making enough money to align with the prices of the market.

But there's no point in this debat anymore, I just underestimated the amount of gold you can earn in one generation with the actual system.

Theres no such thing as a 'natural value'. Things have the value people attach to them, no more, no less. And the value that people attach to one generation of grinding is roughly 600k ingame crpg gold.

Yes, but people generally value it with the amount of time they spend behind their screen making a loom points, and that can roughly be "translated" in gold by calculating the amount of gold generated on crpg in the same amount of time (~ 450k for 1gen without upkeep, I found the crpg xp gain calculator again xD), with market fluctuation it kind of stays around the original price I guess.

[Ninja_Khorin]

I don't think your graph applies for this : I think It implies the only way to get the "demanded thing" (loom points) is to buy it (correct me if I'm wrong), yet in this market you can product it yourself by retiring (the only way of production), means the supplier and the customers are the same people (thus who can enter the market) since they're are the only ones making enough money to align with the prices of the market.

Doesn't change the graph. Just lowers the price, really. If there was only say, 5 people who can create looms and the rest were buyers, the price would be through the roof.

Everyone being able to produce heirlooms causes this:
Demand is decreased. I can do it myself --> Price drops
Supply is increased. There is a lot of heirlooms around --> Price drops

[Leshma]

It's not that simple Khorin.

Suply and demand can stay the same but heirloom price will drop. We're witnessing that as we speak.

Gold now has higher value than before because of gold sinks.

We'll see how much gold we'll earn when score replaces multi but even if it stays the same for average player loom prices will go down, drastically. That will happen because leeching and playing in cheap gear won't generate same amount of gold during a week. You'll still get 350k gold but it will take you a lot longer and because of that people will stop doing it.

[Ninja_Khorin]

Gold now has higher value than before because of gold sinks.

The determinants of demand follow:

1. Income (meaning the available the consumer has to spend)
2. Tastes and preferences
3. Prices of related goods and services
4. Consumers' expectations about future prices and incomes
5. Number of potential consumers

Naturally it's not that simple as shown in the graph, but it's a good generalization.

[Harald]

Here are some pretty graphs for anyone interested. They are based on active characters only and start at the introduction of the transfer between characters (before we had them split between main and alt). Unfortunately we didn't start tracking before the marketplace tax was added, would have been interesting to compare.

People are hoarding heirloom points!

(click to show/hide)

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The taxes and sinks at work.

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How rich are rich people? At first it seemed they were not really affected by the tax (not seen in the graph), i think they were trying to sit it out by not trading. Total is taken from the 100 richest.

(click to show/hide)

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Poor people are really dirt-poor. The average rich person has way more gold than the 1000 (!) poorest characters together.

(click to show/hide)

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EDIT: now that i think about that it might be a good idea to start tracking total gold per account too, not just characters.

[Rhekimos]

-

Very interesting, thanks.

[CrazyCracka420]

That is very interesting, but you should probably total it up per account, my alt has 2,000 gold, my main has 470,000 .

Information like that is crack for us forum junkies...cmp released the damage stats of NA and EU battle servers from like May (I believe), would be awesome if we could see the monthly damage totals at the end of each month, or every quarter or something.

P.S.  Dev's are renown whores

[Torost]

the tax is a real killer for liquidity when trading in gold. Make it 1% or something, you will get almost the same amount in, just spread over more trades. The tax makes speculating really hard. Or slow and hard to profit from.
Makes everyone trying to contruct odd trades that doesnt involve gold to bypass it.
Ofc the rich oldtimers trust eachother not to scam eachother and trade offmarket with no tax.(I got no proof)

I become very amused when I see all kinds of people posting crazy trades when you can buy several loompoints for 520K -550K

Trying to get 1 loompoint + 100 000 gold for their +1 loom.
Or 2 000 000 gold for their +3 MW item.

If you price your items higher than it takes to make them with loompoints ... it wont sell!
And anyone that has 2 000 000 gold can not be considered a newbie , and will never fall for it.

[Oberyn]

Marketing

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[FRANK_THE_TANK]

It's fine how it is.

Get yourself 300k by using peasant gear, buy a +1 and start trading +1s with gold on top. It will take you forever~!~ but at some point you'll gain enough gold to buy a +3.

Buy low sell high, swap shit for shit and get what ever gold is on offer.

Looms help, but they aren't the be all and end all.

-----

I think the biggest difference in +3 vs non-loomed are

Throwing
Horses
Shields

In that order. The boost for 2h and pole arms is nice but it's just kind of icing on the cake. But for the other 3 you see a real differnce. My +3 Brown lion Heater shield lasts a lot longer than a non-loomed one and my Cataphract is a completely different beast. And it's pretty easy to feel the difference with loomed +3 Heavy Throwing Axes vs non-loomed.

But looms aren't make or break. I've killed plenty of people that are loomed head to toe with unloomed weapons.

The real thing that blocks entry for many is how hard the game is and the fact that we are all douch lords.

(click to show/hide)

Here are some pretty graphs for anyone interested. They are based on active characters only and start at the introduction of the transfer between characters (before we had them split between main and alt). Unfortunately we didn't start tracking before the marketplace tax was added, would have been interesting to compare.

People are hoarding heirloom points!

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

The taxes and sinks at work.

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

How rich are rich people? At first it seemed they were not really affected by the tax (not seen in the graph), i think they were trying to sit it out by not trading. Total is taken from the 100 richest.

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

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Poor people are really dirt-poor. The average rich person has way more gold than the 1000 (!) poorest characters together.

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

EDIT: now that i think about that it might be a good idea to start tracking total gold per account too, not just characters.

I never thought I would be so proud to be in the 1%

MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

BATMAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MB passionately]

Lol!!

Poor people are really dirt-poor. The average rich person has way more gold than the 1000 (!) poorest characters together.

Like in real life, welcome reality 

[MB passionately]

Apart from that, with a well balanced level 32 or 33 character, do you need loomed equipment, probably you (and I) will suck more in duels, but in a crowded 100 person battle??

I plan to retire with my alt character, but I think the market is saturated at the moment (23 offers from 510-655k)

[dynamike]

Yo friends !

First of all, I'm not really a "market guy"... my only interaction with it was trying to trade Mr_Fasole's MW javelins for him. And that's a shame ! I'd like to take part in the market and pay for some stuffs I want!

But here's the (my) issue > I'll never get enough money to buy 1 loom point. I've around 80k-100k gold, plus an equipement worth around 200k I think (I haz a shitload of stuffs) and a +2 nordic champion sword (that's the only loomed item I have).

I'll never get 500k or 600k, people who do not take part in the retiring game and just want to make a solid build -or don't have time to make their char again and again- are kind of excluded from the market because of the ridiculous evaluation of the loom point (or devaluation of the money ?).
What I'm trying to point out here is that there's no "natural value", only human mind fixes value.

I'm not trying to say people should gief their loom points for a bag of chips, but to bring the prices to a reasonnable and accessible level for people who don't race throught generations.
If we use the power of logic, the price of a loom point should approximatively be around the amount of gold you earn during a generation ; since that's kind of the only way to measure the "price of the time" you spent (or wasted, video games are wrong !) playing crpg. (and I don't think that's around 500k, maybe 100 or 150k, but I never really paid attention to it)

So yeah you wouldn't count in millions anymore, but it would be easier for sellers to find buyers, and it would be POSSIBLE for buyers to buy what they're looking for with a reasonnable period of gold grinding : the market wouldn't be a private club for wealthy crpg players and loom grinders anymore ;p

I might be completely wrong, but I think that kind of make sense.

It's funny that you say you can't participate in the market when at the same time you have a +2 heirloom on your hands...

The market is not about getting free stuff without putting anything in - you need to invest/trade your current heirlooms to gain other ones and/or make money.