Author Topic: Pew! Pew! Pew!  (Read 15784 times)

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Offline Tears of Destiny

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Re: Pew! Pew! Pew!
« Reply #105 on: April 14, 2011, 08:04:05 pm »
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Sure, I can explain.

First, to clarify that I understand you, you're arguing that every other class is better than 2H'ers. That's absolutely true under certain battlefield conditions , and absolutely false under certain conditions. We could probably argue as to what these are, fairly, but we'll stick with the obvious extremes- 2H'ers are weak in open fields and amazing with abundant sources of cover or in some tight spaces. The only ones they're very strong against in open fields are shielders, which are slower (foot and swing speed), and you say that have decent reach when in reality, their reach is worst of all archtypes. When they get into swinging distance, 2H'ers have the best damage, the best weapon abilities (crushtrough, for instance), and the second best reach (dividing cavalry into 2H, 1H, and Polearm, the latter being the vast majority). When it comes to pure melee power, 2H'ers stand supreme. The scoreboards reflect this.

An easy way to verify this is to look at siege maps. Who always tops the defender's scoreboard? 2H'ers. Not even ranged folks, being in virtually ideal conditions for their class, beat them with any frequency (I've seen some get close from time to time, but never beat them outright). Yet on offense, 2H'ers (and ranged) don't do nearly as well, usually because they lack any cover until they break through and take the wall. Only shield infantry outshine them, for obvious reasons.

I'd like to break down the other classes as well, where 2H'ers beat them and where they beat 2H'ers, but this really is a long, long discussion and it's after 4am. Maybe tomorrow. If anyone else wants to jump on it, feel free to. Your argument simply doesn't stand and the scoreboards reflect that consistently. 2H'ers are a very viable class with major benefits and equally major flaws. They dominate certain classes in certain cases, and they get dominated by certain classes in those very same situations.

This is all quite far from the original post, however. The only point that has to be reiterated is that, yes, 2H'ers should fear ranged, shields should fear axes, horsemen should fear pikes, ranged should fear shielders* (goddamn huscarls), and peasants should fear everything.

*Looking back, you seem to emphasize the point that ranged can easily shoot above, beside, or under shields. That really just isn't the case. I've poured hundreds of arrows into shields, trying to pierce (oh, wait, slashnerf, ugh, what?) that little toe and rarely with any effect, even when it's clearly unprotected. Really, maybe a dozen times out of HUNDREDS of attempts. The forcefield effect with even just 3 or so points in shield is truly amazing. I've never gotten a headshot on anyone while the shield was raised.

This is honestly very well written, +1 to this. Finally, someone bothered to type this out correctly.
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Offline Rhade

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Re: Pew! Pew! Pew!
« Reply #106 on: April 14, 2011, 09:27:28 pm »
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Sure, I can explain.

First, to clarify that I understand you, you're arguing that every other class is better than 2H'ers. That's absolutely true under certain battlefield conditions , and absolutely false under certain conditions. We could probably argue as to what these are, fairly, but we'll stick with the obvious extremes- 2H'ers are weak in open fields and amazing with abundant sources of cover or in some tight spaces. The only ones they're very strong against in open fields are shielders, which are slower (foot and swing speed), and you say that have decent reach when in reality, their reach is worst of all archtypes. When they get into swinging distance, 2H'ers have the best damage, the best weapon abilities (crushtrough, for instance), and the second best reach (dividing cavalry into 2H, 1H, and Polearm, the latter being the vast majority). When it comes to pure melee power, 2H'ers stand supreme. The scoreboards reflect this.

An easy way to verify this is to look at siege maps. Who always tops the defender's scoreboard? 2H'ers. Not even ranged folks, being in virtually ideal conditions for their class, beat them with any frequency (I've seen some get close from time to time, but never beat them outright). Yet on offense, 2H'ers (and ranged) don't do nearly as well, usually because they lack any cover until they break through and take the wall. Only shield infantry outshine them, for obvious reasons.

I'd like to break down the other classes as well, where 2H'ers beat them and where they beat 2H'ers, but this really is a long, long discussion and it's after 4am. Maybe tomorrow. If anyone else wants to jump on it, feel free to. Your argument simply doesn't stand and the scoreboards reflect that consistently. 2H'ers are a very viable class with major benefits and equally major flaws. They dominate certain classes in certain cases, and they get dominated by certain classes in those very same situations.

This is all quite far from the original post, however. The only point that has to be reiterated is that, yes, 2H'ers should fear ranged, shields should fear axes, horsemen should fear pikes, ranged should fear shielders* (goddamn huscarls), and peasants should fear everything.

*Looking back, you seem to emphasize the point that ranged can easily shoot above, beside, or under shields. That really just isn't the case. I've poured hundreds of arrows into shields, trying to pierce (oh, wait, slashnerf, ugh, what?) that little toe and rarely with any effect, even when it's clearly unprotected. Really, maybe a dozen times out of HUNDREDS of attempts. The forcefield effect with even just 3 or so points in shield is truly amazing. I've never gotten a headshot on anyone while the shield was raised.

If you have 3 shield skill, you're obviously not a 2h player but a shielder with some 2h so that's invalidated.

2h doesn't "beat" 1h. 2h requires skill, timing, and precision to manual block while 1h has an AUTOBLOCK feature, most shielders wear huscarls, not kite shields, so good luck "breaking" their shield. You would have to block at least 12-15 times with most swords to break a shield, a feat 99% of the cRPG population cannot do.

1h reach is even longer here than it is in native and 1h+shield vs 2h is still even in native. In regards to your "range" argument, a 2h must backpedal while a shielder runs at them, shielding, and backpedalling is slower than walking forward so a 2h will get 1, maybe 2 swings off (on an auotblocking shielder) then the shielder is inside with extremely fast attack speed and good damage (once again, my example of losing half my hp to a 1h with 7 IF, 21 STR and full plate you didn't address), so while you can say that "2h'ers rule the boards" in public matches with bad players, sure, you have some validity in that decent 2h'ers will destroy bad players who can't block. I'm talking about the competitive end where people actually know how to play, 2h'ers don't have any area where they shine. The only time they shine is that they are able to capitalize more quickly when a player is bad.

Offline Thucydides

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Re: Pew! Pew! Pew!
« Reply #107 on: April 14, 2011, 09:40:30 pm »
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Rhade, buy an axe.

/thread

Offline MrShine

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Re: Pew! Pew! Pew!
« Reply #108 on: April 14, 2011, 10:47:53 pm »
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We get it; you want your build to be able to compete against all other builds without compromising or making any changes.  People have repeatedly given good suggestions that for whatever reason (trolling?) you refuse to accept the fact you might need to adjust to make 2-H more successful in crpg.

If you want to be better against ranged, suck it up and put 1-3 points into shield skill.
If you want to be better against shields, bring a damn axe.

There really isn't anything else to say in this thread that hasn't been drilled into the ground.
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Offline RamsesXXIIX

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Re: Pew! Pew! Pew!
« Reply #109 on: April 15, 2011, 12:33:16 am »
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If you have 3 shield skill, you're obviously not a 2h player but a shielder with some 2h so that's invalidated.

2h doesn't "beat" 1h. 2h requires skill, timing, and precision to manual block while 1h has an AUTOBLOCK feature,
And shielders need skill, timing, footwork and precision as well to beat a twohander. If you're actually standing still to fight a shielder, you're doing it wrong
most shielders wear huscarls, not kite shields, so good luck "breaking" their shield. You would have to block at least 12-15 times with most swords to break a shield, a feat 99% of the cRPG population cannot do.
Taking down a shielder is nothing about simply beating their shield. If you're trying to do that you're doing it wrong.

1h reach is even longer(So is 2handed) here than it is in native and 1h+shield vs 2h is still even in native. In regards to your "range" argument, a 2h must backpedal while a shielder runs at them, shielding, and backpedalling is slower than walking forward so a 2h will get 1, maybe 2 swings off (on an auotblocking shielder) then the shielder is inside with extremely fast attack speed and good damage (once again, my example of losing half my hp to a 1h with 7 IF, 21 STR and full plate you didn't address)Instead of spitting off BS, go use the vargas toolkit to see if this is actually true. If you're wearing 55 armor and the enemy hits you with a max heirloomed steel pick it only does 30 dmg on average. With 21 str and 7 ironflesh you should have 70 hp

, so while you can say that "2h'ers rule the boards" in public matches with bad players, sure, you have some validity in that decent 2h'ers will destroy bad players who can't block. I'm talking about the competitive end where people actually know how to play, 2h'ers don't have any area where they shine. The only time they shine is that they are able to capitalize more quickly when a player is bad.

And, you're forgetting the bigger picture: Where does a 2hander shine? Not necessarily in 1v1 (but certainly there as well) but in group fights. Imagine 10 good shielders against 10 good twohanders. Who wins? 

Offline Rhade

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Re: Pew! Pew! Pew!
« Reply #110 on: April 15, 2011, 12:42:04 am »
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And, you're forgetting the bigger picture: Where does a 2hander shine? Not necessarily in 1v1 (but certainly there as well) but in group fights. Imagine 10 good shielders against 10 good twohanders. Who wins?

Both are equally effective, one just takes more player skill to be effective with.

Offline Nemeth

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Re: Pew! Pew! Pew!
« Reply #111 on: April 15, 2011, 12:42:54 am »
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Both are equally effective, one just takes more player skill to be effective with.

Yeah, shielder. How does that help your point though?

Offline MadJackMcMad

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Re: Pew! Pew! Pew!
« Reply #112 on: April 15, 2011, 12:58:00 am »
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And, you're forgetting the bigger picture: Where does a 2hander shine? Not necessarily in 1v1 (but certainly there as well) but in group fights. Imagine 10 good shielders against 10 good twohanders. Who wins?

With swords? 2h's get ganked.  I'd guess around 5 shields left.  The only way you hit a shielder front on is if he gets careless.
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Offline Boss_Awesome

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Re: Pew! Pew! Pew!
« Reply #113 on: April 15, 2011, 03:35:05 am »
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With swords? 2h's get ganked.  I'd guess around 5 shields left.  The only way you hit a shielder front on is if he gets careless.
In a larger fight, people don't just sit there and duel each other, they try to hit people who are fighting other people.  Why? Because it's easier and faster.  You could waste your time trying to catch a turtle in a mistake, or just hit his turtle buddy other the head from behind.  2 handers are good at this because they kill faster.  10 2 handers vs 10 shielders with equal skill and those shielders are gonna die, unless the 2 handers are idiots and all tk each other.

Offline Darkkarma

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Re: Pew! Pew! Pew!
« Reply #114 on: April 15, 2011, 03:52:52 am »
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In a larger fight, people don't just sit there and duel each other, they try to hit people who are fighting other people.  Why? Because it's easier and faster.  You could waste your time trying to catch a turtle in a mistake, or just hit his turtle buddy other the head from behind.  2 handers are good at this because they kill faster.  10 2 handers vs 10 shielders with equal skill and those shielders are gonna die, unless the 2 handers are idiots and all tk each other.

This chaotic battle kill theory could work both ways. I don't see how hitting someone in the back in the heat of battle makes 2 handers a more viable choice in anyway. With as fast as shielders can be(even as strength builds) coupled with the fact that alot of 1 hander swings hit the head area, I just don't see the 2 handers naturally getting the edge. If it were polearms, then sure, their extended reach and versatility (many long weapons also have massive shield breaking bonuses) could give them the edge in that scenario.
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Offline Kaelaen

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Re: Pew! Pew! Pew!
« Reply #115 on: April 15, 2011, 04:47:01 am »
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Not really seeing how people assume 10 two-handers would win against 10 shielders.  I would think the shielders would win because they could simply exchange who strikes and who blocks.  It's very easy getting your weapon tied up when pressed up by shields, the only way I can see two-handers winning is if the shielders were terrible and were running around with their weapons chambered.  Assuming both sides knew what they're doing, it would seem really unlikely the two-handers would win because in group fights, shields shine.  You can't manual block more than one direction, but if you have a shield well, no need to state the obvious.
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Offline Rhade

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Re: Pew! Pew! Pew!
« Reply #116 on: April 15, 2011, 06:43:28 am »
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I call that the turtle zerg.

A bunch of shielders rush you, surround you, and there's nothing you can do as they refuse to attack unless they're behind you.

2h'ers can't do that.

Also, the extended reach and damage of 2h'ers work against them as they're more likely to hit friendlies.

I don't see how the "10 2h beats 10 1hshield" works at all.

Offline Damatacus_ATS

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Re: Pew! Pew! Pew!
« Reply #117 on: April 15, 2011, 06:59:54 am »
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Playing a 2 hander is more fun, it does take more skill to be proficient at. Not to say that there are not good 1 handers, but it is easier to be decent at 1 hander, since there is no manual blocking. A noob would do far better to start off as a 1 hander.

Offline Rhade

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Re: Pew! Pew! Pew!
« Reply #118 on: April 15, 2011, 07:20:49 am »
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Playing a 2 hander is more fun, it does take more skill to be proficient at. Not to say that there are not good 1 handers, but it is easier to be decent at 1 hander, since there is no manual blocking. A noob would do far better to start off as a 1 hander.

Agreed

Offline RamsesXXIIX

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Re: Pew! Pew! Pew!
« Reply #119 on: April 15, 2011, 07:21:03 am »
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I call that the turtle zerg.

A bunch of shielders rush you, surround you, and there's nothing you can do as they refuse to attack unless they're behind you.

2h'ers can't do that.

Also, the extended reach and damage of 2h'ers work against them as they're more likely to hit friendlies.

I don't see how the "10 2h beats 10 1hshield" works at all.

This just isn't viable against good twohanders in a big fight. Maybe the shielders will get some, but they will lose.

Also, how many of you have actually tried this out in clan battles? It IS the way it works. In group fights, the only thing that matters(Apart from your dueling and blocking skills):

1) Reach

2) Damage

3)situational awareness

Assuming both groups have players of similar skill, the shielders doesn't stand a chance against good 2handers.

We can discuss this over and over, i get the feeling that you disagree, and since we can't test it properly, we might as well let the case rest. The reason why i brought this example is to show other areas were 2handers are good, not just in duels. 2handers are better in group fights than shielders, period.