*Disclaimer* If you want a tldr version, skip this thread. *Disclaimer*
This started out as a complaint about the lack of versatility within the Two-Handed weapon class and at least for the first part, it remains so. I realized while writing this and staring at the numbers though, that it wasn't fair to simply bring attention to only the one aspect of balance; rather than creating two separate threads, I have condensed it down into one subject.
It's obvious that certain weapons are more like some than others, and that certain groups of these weapons create a niche. Each of these niches or "subclasses" have unique play-styles and share advantages and/or disadvantages. This is where versatility comes into play. So why is versatility even important? Versatility plays a major role in balance, both of a class type and indeed with individual weapons. What are the alternatives that mounted cavalry can choose to take with them for when they're unhorsed, or if they want to use one weapon while both mounted and unmounted? What if a player wants to take a duel specific weapon and a team fight weapon?
It's clear that pikes shouldn't be able to be carried alongside a greatsword or a GLA, otherwise there would be no need for them to currently be 3 slots, or for us to even have a slot system at all. Should you not consider the advantages of taking a Swiss Halberd and a GLA at the same time, while remaining equally proficient in both without having to split your wpf? So what are these subclasses?
The ComparisonAxes
Polearms vary in length from 115 to 155, two-hand have the range variation at 90 to 116. While the majority of the polearms remain balanced, two-handers are forced to use unbalanced weapons if they want an axe or bonus against shield. You could throw the poleaxes in here as well, in which case not only do they serve the purpose of an axe, they also have good thrust damage (aside from one, which is still mediocre). Two-Handers have nothing like this.
Pierce damage, swing weapons
Polearms have the Bec and Long Spiked club. 2h gets the Morning Star, yet another unbalanced weapon. The Bec is balanced, has more range, 1 more speed, and a thrust. But wait, doesn't the morning star just serve the purpose of an axe more than a dueling, all-purpose weapon that the Bec can fill? It does, and with 38p, why would anyone even use any of the axes, they only gain 10-15 range. So much for any sort of versatility 2hers have in these two categories. Nearly all of the axes are inferior to the morning star, as 38 pierce does the same amount of damage to a mere 40 armored target that 44 cut would do.
Really long range spammy thingies like the Flamberge
Two-handers have one, polearms have several. Hell, they have 9 weapons with 150 length + that also still have four attack directions. They range from the Scythe at 896 gold to the GLB at 13,700 gold. That’s huge versatility within the subclass for polearms.
Crushthrough
Two-handers actually win here. They have both really slow and heavy weapons, and mildly faster + lighter weapons that sacrifice crushthrough frequency, for speed. The polearm version has uniqueness to it as well, as it isn't just a carbon copy of one of its 2h counterparts. It's much, much longer than any of the other crushthrough weapons.
Blunt type weapons
The Two-Handed balanced weapons are the goedendag and mace. Polearms have the War Spear, Red Tassel Spear, Iron Staff, and Quarter Staff. Of the Unbalanced ones, 2h have Bar Mace, Long Iron Mace, Studded War Club varying from 92 to 96 length and 92 to 95 speed. Polearms have Long Hafted Spiked Mace, Long Hafted Knobbed Mace varying from 133 to 138 length and 91 to 93 speed. Polearms are slightly more versatile here but pretty much equal balance throughout,
now that pole-stagger isn't there to account for.
Pikes
As much as a people would like to believe, a greatsword isn’t a pike. The longspear has an effective 260 length, the greatswords are around 190 length. The 70 length difference is quite huge in practice. Furthermore, pikes completely dominate horsemen, greatswords do not. “But I kill horsemen all the time on my 2her”. Sure, and I pull off 3v1s against bads every other round, doesn’t mean that if you were to take two equally skilled players, that the horseman would have any reason to lose. An effective 240 length reach from cavalry, completely shits on the best possible reach you can get with any 2her. Sure, you might hit his horse, but you will also get lanced without doing any damage to the rider. To go further still, even if you were to kill the horse, there is still a chance that you would run into the bug where you’d end up getting lanced/couched due to the rider not getting put into the proper knockdown animation on time.
Hoplites
Though most of their weapons were hit fairly hard by the loss of pole-stagger, for the sake of this comparison I’m going to pretend they are as balanced as they were when they had pole-stagger, as it’s clear they will be receiving a buff as compensation for their loss. For field battles, hoplites offer the most versatility, utility and survivability as they have a shield for protection, longer range than anyone except pikemen, and if they put away their shield, they have a completely different way of fighting. They have a minimum of 180 effective length (130 length spear) but most likely around 200 (war spear has 200 effective length in hoplite mode) and can even go up to an effective 250 length range with a bamboo spear. Two-Handers only have gimmicks as a comparison. You either use the weapon as a 1h when you use it with a shield, which nerfs the speed, damage and effective length or you use it with a shield in polearm mode, in which case your effective range is 150, easily inferior to even the shortest of polearm hoplite weapons as well as doing less damage.
Bi-directional weapons
These don’t even exist for Two-Handed type weapons. Why should this matter? The attack directions are part of a weapon’s stats, if a weapon only has two or three attack directions you have to take that into consideration when you’re balancing its length, speed and damage. This may not seem like a huge issue, but you have to remember, this is about versatility and these weapons have a unique fighting style.
Mounted Weapons
I don't think I really need to go into too much depth here. Only the Longsword and Morning Star are viable for 2h, meanwhile the usage statistics for polearms show something vastly different, even with 30%+ on the heavy lance. Not to say that makes for good balance within the lance class, because it doesn't, but I know the issue is trying to be addressed so you'll have to forgive me for not spending too much time on it. Regardless, people are still regularly using the Lance, Light lance, and the Great Lance. More importantly though, I
know it's not necessary to point out which cavalry type, polearm or two-handed, is superior.
+70 Length Thrust Weapons
Any weapon with the unique two-handed thrust animation, which means polearms don’t have anything that fits this niche, but it doesn’t mean they don’t have weapons of comparable range (glaive, any 170~ range polearm). What this class might actually lack in range on swings, it quickly makes up for with its thrust. These weapons don’t have any fancy mechanics (aside from a single goedendag) and their only utility is indeed, in their range. On
average, their damage isn’t enough (at least for me) to be considered hard hitters.
I just listed ten subclasses/fighting styles that are based on weapon stats. Six of them greatly favor polearms, two greatly favor two-handed weapons, and two are relatively equally balanced. We haven’t quite gone through all of the weapons and fighting styles, so here’s two more.
Tri/Quad Directional, universally well rounded, sharing the same general fighting-style, weapons. These could possibly double as "dueling" weapons. This section is more in depth as these weapons are the most popular (Not so much the faster weapons) as well as the most controversial.
The Fast WeaponsTwo-HandedWeapons Chosen: Longsword, Katana, Bastard Sword, Two-Handed Sword, Miaodao
95 to 101 speed Mean: 97.6 Mode: 95 Median: 98
35 cut to 40 cut Mean: 37.5 c Mode: 36c Median: 37c
0/16 pierce to 23 pierce thrust Mean: 16.4 p Mode: NA Median: 21p
95 to 115 length Mean: 106.6 Mode: NA Median: 106
Total 2h Count of this Category: 5
(I do not count the Heavy Bastard Sword and Longsword as being two separate items.)
(The weapons most greatly affected by the loss of pole-stagger, also the weapons which will receive the greatest reimbursement for their loss)
Weapons Chosen: Quarter Staff, Shortened Spear, Spear, Long Spiked Club, Red Tassel Spear, War Spear, Iron Staff
95 to 102 speed Mean: 97.4 Mode: 95 Median: 97
15 blunt to 25 pierce swing Mean: 18.9 b Mode: 15b Median: 18b
17 blunt to 25 pierce thrust Mean: 24.4 p Mode: 27p Median: 26p
120 to 150 length Mean: 135.3 Mode: 150 Median: 135
Total Polearm Count of this Category: 7 (Discarded the Staff and Practice Lance as they have no purpose for sustained usage.)
What does this mean, aside from polearms having 40% more weapons in this category than Two-Handers? To start, these weapons have equivalent speed. Polearms have both superior range on all attacks, as well as much higher thrust damage. While clearly, Two-Handers have superior swing damage. You have to remember on that last one though, that fast polearm's swings are most affected by the loss of pole-stagger and that these damages are based around the existence of pole-stagger. These weapons truly got shit on by the loss of pole-stagger and will thus (most likely) receive a large buff to their swing damage as compensation. On the other hand, the polearms clearly have superior thrust damage and weapon range for all but the thrust, which, even then, is fairly similar. Each of these polearms can also be used with a shield, so you should account for the added versatility here as well.
The Slow, Long or High Damage WeaponsTwo-Handed (43.5% EU usage, 27.5% NA usage)
Weapons Chosen: Dadao, Heavy Great Sword, Great Sword, Highland Claymore, Sword of War, Nodachi, German Greatsword, Danish Greatsword
91 to 94 speed Mean: 92.2 Mode: 92 Median: 92
0/22 pierce to 26 pierce thrust Mean: 17.9 Mode: 0, 22, 26 Median: 21.5
(Two weapons had no thrust, I decided to keep them in this average as I found no other way to offset the bonus to other stats that these two weapons receive due to not having a thrust. Indeed you could say that all of the other stats are "inflated" due to the weapons being balanced around their lack of a thrust. The same way bi-directional weapons are balanced around only having two attack directions. Without the Nodachi or Dadao, mean: 23.8)
37 cut to 43 cut Mean: 40.3 (Without the Nodachi or Dadao: 39.5) Mode: 40, 43 Median: 40
115 to 124 length Mean: 120.3
Total 2h Count of this Category: 8
Average gold cost: 12,487 with 1 weapon less than 11.7K gold (price of 2nd cheapest weapon)
Polearm (20.12% EU usage, 19.99% NA usage)
Usages greatly skewed by mounted/lance usage
Weapons Chosen: Hafted Blade, Long Bardiche, Long Hafted Blade, Long War Axe, Glaive, Bec de Corbin, Great Long Axe, Poleaxe, German Poleaxe, Elegant Poleaxe
89 to 94 speed Mean: 91.2 Mode: 92 Median: 92
16 blunt to 31 pierce Mean: 22.3 Mode: 16, 26 Median: 21
34 pierce to 45 cut Mean: 40.8 Mode: 45, 39 Median: 41
(not including the bec, which averages the same amount of damage against a 40 armored target, that a 42 cut weapon would and what a 44 damage weapon would average against 50 armor. Whenever I make a build, I plan to be fighting 50 armored opponents, because anyone that is going to give me a tough time in melee, has at least that much. Mean: 41.1 with a 44c weapon representing the bec.)
120 to 160 length Mean: 135.7
Total Polearm Count of this Category: 10
Average gold cost: 11078 with 6 weapons less than 11.7K gold
To start, the cost of the weapons in this top tier category varies quite a bit between the two. I'm sure some people are wondering how I can call "cheap" weapons "top tier". Well, due to my wanting to keep the dadao as a top tier weapon, because of how slight the variance is from the Highland Claymore, and the fact that the Hafted blade fits all the technical requirements (94 speed, balanced, 4 directional attack), as well as both costing the same, I thought it appropriate to leave both, rather than take one out. Though, arguably, the Hafted blade is a fairly bad weapon. They fill the same purpose in each class as being the "low-end" top-tier weapons. LWA and GS were both kept because in both cases, they differ from only +1 speed and -1 cut from their legitimate, top-tier counterparts. In hind sight, I could have added the Long Axe to the polearm list, but I was trying to not have
too many cheap weapons on the list. The Heavy Great Sword fills all of my technical requirements for the list, but arguably, it could be removed. This would only further stress the point of a lack of versatility for two-handers, especially had I added the Long Axe to the list, making it 7 weapons to 11, nearly 60% more weapons in the polearm category.
The speed is equivalent again, as are both damage types as well. Length on swings slightly favors Two-Handed weapons while the thrust length is greatly in favor of the Two-Handers. Six of the ten polearms have “bonus against shields”. I do not believe that most of the polarms in this section are disadvantaged by the loss of pole-stagger, as they simply aren’t fast enough weapons to utilize pole-stagger, for a second hit. I would still say that for the most part, these weapons are at a disadvantage over-all due to the difference in thrust length.
So why not just change to the polearm animation for thrusts? The thrust animation creates a fighting style that is unique. Why needlessly change fighting styles when you can do other things to implement balance? One of the staple advantages for Two-Handers is their thrust reach, one of them for polearms, is their number of balanced weapons with bonus against shields, or the ability to stop horses. Taking one of those away completely changes balance for the whole class. The same way taking pole-stagger away from polearms did.
“But pole-stagger was removed from polearms, so it’s only fair to remove something from Two-Handers”. No, it isn’t. Pole-stagger allowed you to consistently get
two hits for your opponent only making
one mistake. That holds a much greater affect over the outcome of a fight than 30-40 length on a single, low-medium damage attack direction.
Do you see this the same as I do? Am I missing something? Am I the only one who thinks that overall, these weapons seem mostly balanced (or were, before pole-stagger was removed)? Discuss.
