Author Topic: 2h stab (Read 3119 times)

Jarlek · « **Reply #45 on:** July 23, 2012, 05:23:27 pm »

Quote from: Tydeus on July 23, 2012, 02:46:05 pm

Because that's the average for 2h stabs. The Danish is still only 24(1 point off from what I'm using), pretty much everything else has 22 or 23. You can't make global balance changes by focusing on extreme cases. The German Greatsword is a weapon that specializes in the thrust, it is the extreme case. The entire point of that weapon, is to focus on utilizing the thrust to its maximum potential.

What's your point by stating that the best thrust damage any 2h can get is only as good as the worst thrust damage of the Poleaxes? What's the point in stating it has better damage when using the polearm animation, when it would have less effective range than the poleaxe? Generally, you trade range for damage, or range for speed, seems logical to me that it would be so.

You can't really call a 92 speed, 38c swing damage a "weapon that specializes in the thrust". It has a good thrust yeah, but that doesn't mean it's an "extreme thrusting weapon". That definition are for weapons that have a good stab and crappy swings or only 1 or 2 attack directions.

But I agree we shouldn't make global changes based on the extreme cases. But since the German is a sword that outreaches a lot of stab-focused polearms and deal almost the same damage, there's something really wrong. Same goes for most of the 2handers with a stab. Why grab a spear when you can get high damage swings and a longer stab when all you lose is a bit of stab damage?

I point out that the best thrust damage any 2h can get is as good as the worst thrust damage a poleaxe have mainly because the 2h stab has longer reach and usually hit the head while also being faster.

Tydeus · « **Reply #46 on:** July 23, 2012, 05:46:28 pm »

Quote from: Zapper on July 23, 2012, 05:23:27 pm

You can't really call a 92 speed, 38c swing damage a "weapon that specializes in the thrust". It has a good thrust yeah, but that doesn't mean it's an "extreme thrusting weapon". That definition are for weapons that have a good stab and crappy swings or only 1 or 2 attack directions.

But I agree we shouldn't make global changes based on the extreme cases. But since the German is a sword that outreaches a lot of stab-focused polearms and deal almost the same damage, there's something really wrong. Same goes for most of the 2handers with a stab. Why grab a spear when you can get high damage swings and a longer stab when all you lose is a bit of stab damage?

I point out that the best thrust damage any 2h can get is as good as the worst thrust damage a poleaxe have mainly because the 2h stab has longer reach and usually hit the head while also being faster.

Specializes by comparison to any other 2h weapon. Directly compare the German to the Danish, you're trading off swing damage for thrust damage. SoW/Claymore to German, same thing. The only reason that one would ever chose a German Greatsword, is because they want to utilize the thrust to its maximum potential. Otherwise you'd clearly have several other options to chose from. It really makes perfect sense to me.

Really? It both outreaches and deals almost the same damage? What are these weapons you're talking about? Certainly not the War Spear, because this is a gimped weapon now that polestagger is gone. It didn't rely on the pierce for anything other than hoplite mode, but when used with a shield, it outranges the greatswords. Certainly not any of these 32+ pierce weapons like, the Awlpikes, Military Fork, English Bill, Double Sided Lance. Because I already showed you how a mere 7 points on a weapon can end up being more than 30% effective damage.

You're not taking into account all of the versatility that polearms have (they're by far the most versatile weapon type), compared to two-handers, which have the least versatility of all of the melee weapon types. To quote bear when he touched on the subject in this thread "Either use cut, or use unbalanced weapons". You're also forgetting about Bonus Against Shields. If a two-hander wants that, he has to use an unbalanced weapon, there isn't even one exception to this.

Edit: Upon further review, I realize my initial argument was somewhat misleading. I find the length acceptable due to both the small amount of damage that it does, as well as the lack of versatility that two handers (as a whole) have. Not only that, but due to the fact that everything else about them, if you take away the length advantage, would then amount to less than what polearms have. You would have to completely revamp the entirety of the 2h sword class, and what would the weapons look like afterwards? You'd have two things you could do, buff the swing damage and/or make them faster. They would have zero utility (no support, no bonus against shields, couldn't be used with a shield) While the polearm counterparts are already the masters of both utility and versatility.

This doesn't sound like a good place to go, not when two-handers are already lacking in all areas outside of raw damage (anything not a sword).

CrazyCracka420 · « **Reply #47 on:** July 23, 2012, 06:42:08 pm »

Why are you guys arguing? 2h stab animation is the longest animation of any weapon and swing type in the game. end of story.

2h swords should not be outreaching a lot of the spears...those people would be better off with the 2h sword.

dodnet · « **Reply #48 on:** July 23, 2012, 07:41:50 pm »

Quote from: Tydeus on July 23, 2012, 05:06:38 pm

Finally, last I checked from a link cmp pasted in irc, polearms are pretty damn well balanced with each other, with the most popular polearm (outside of lances), being below 5%. So there's no reason to think that they're bad or that no one is using them. Furthermore, there is only one thread about poleaxe balance in the first 5 pages(I didn't bother going further) of the balance discussion section, and it's about "Internal Poleaxe Balance" Nothing suggesting they are on a whole, inferior items.
Don't think it's going to get reverted any time soon, but I do know that it's getting changed/cleaned up, quite a bit.

Based on the stats, cmp posted here: http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,27273.msg397361.html#msg397361 I made a recalculation leaving mounted Heavy Lance completely out (it had over 30% of polearms total):

(value is percent)

(click to show/hide)

Swiss halbert, and some poleaxe are far below 10% of usage...

Well, one big issue here: You're talking about NA, I'm talking about EU. I really can't remember when I last saw a poleaxe on EU1, the biggest server.

CrazyCracka420 · « **Reply #49 on:** July 23, 2012, 07:51:13 pm »

Quote from: dodnet on July 23, 2012, 07:41:50 pm

Well, one big issue here: You're talking about NA, I'm talking about EU. I really can't remember when I last saw a poleaxe on EU1, the biggest server.

That seems retarded...poleaxes are still very good weapons, even with polestagger. Maybe EU1 has a lot of the "rambo" types, NA has mob tactics, but seems like a lot of people still fight in groups.

You don't have cav lancers who carry a poleaxe as a backup weapon? Long bardiche's damage and length kicks so much ass, and it costs under 7k...

Fuma Kotaro · « **Reply #50 on:** July 23, 2012, 07:51:39 pm »

make a poll

Laufknoten · « **Reply #51 on:** July 23, 2012, 07:52:55 pm »

Polearm-stab animation for greatswords -> problem solved.

dodnet · « **Reply #52 on:** July 23, 2012, 07:58:08 pm »

Quote from: CrazyCracka420 on July 23, 2012, 07:51:13 pm

You don't have cav lancers who carry a poleaxe as a backup weapon? Long bardiche's damage and length kicks so much ass, and it costs under 7k...

EU cav fights with it's heavy lance on ground or some sword, whistles for one of the million horses around and rides into the sunrise, couching some poor ass to hell.

Zlisch_The_Butcher · « **Reply #53 on:** July 23, 2012, 08:05:00 pm »

Quote from: Tydeus on July 23, 2012, 05:46:28 pm

You're not taking into account all of the versatility that polearms have (they're by far the most versatile weapon type), compared to two-handers, which have the least versatility of all of the melee weapon types.

Lawl, 2h have spears: Greatswords, polearm/2h: swords, 1h's: Low tier swords 'n' morningstar, best dueling weapons ingame: Danish/German, spamming weapons with insane speed: Katana, blunt damage that isn't unbalanced: Goedendag, Light always overheadable crushthrough weapons: Maul/Mallet, unbalanced axes: 2h axes, unbalanced piercing axes usable with shield and on horseback: Morningstar, shares greatest cut ingame with the great long bardiche, besides the bardiche having an unbalanced tag they're very similar, and a slightly more damaging 1 slot steel staff: Mace.

2h got great versatility, the issue is just that due to greatswords being massively op they're used nearly purely, greatswords are the only 2h weapons really needing a nerf badly, and a nerf to their thrusts will do. (On nearly all my melee alts I'm 2h, 'cuss it's way easier and more op, in all SoAs duel turneys I use 2h MW danish/german, same reason, whenever I challenge folks to duels that aren't just for fun I use 2h mw danish/german, reason? Obvious... I ain't even particularly biased in this mater of nerfing due to my main and the char I enjoy playing most being a horsethrower anyway...)

Haboe · « **Reply #54 on:** July 24, 2012, 12:43:48 am »

Indeed, nerf the sword of cookies and the sword of tears!

God, why did we change those names?!

Herkkutatti666 · « **Reply #55 on:** July 24, 2012, 01:28:24 am »

Quote from: sF_Leonidas on July 22, 2012, 04:04:15 pm

I was long enough 2h and it was so easy

Every class is easy if you know how to master it.

Leshma · « **Reply #56 on:** July 24, 2012, 01:39:07 am »

Being a shielder isn't easy because of ghosting through shield. Also you're easy prey to cav (hoplite hybridization can fix this). If you want to be damaging you'll be slow, if you want to be fast you'll glance on plate armor. Footwork is the most important thing and I have to admit that my footwork skills aren't up to the task.

Also in order to be mobile you'll need to wear light amor and carry small shield which means that archers will shoot at you because chances are high they will hit you (unless you have 6+ shield skill).

Being twohander, especially STR oriented is much easier. You follow the pack and spam overheads.

Vodner · « **Reply #57 on:** July 24, 2012, 02:05:45 am »

Quote

Being a shielder isn't easy because of ghosting through shield. Also you're easy prey to cav (hoplite hybridization can fix this). If you want to be damaging you'll be slow, if you want to be fast you'll glance on plate armor. Footwork is the most important thing and I have to admit that my footwork skills aren't up to the task.

Ghosting through the shield is only really an issue at higher pings, or if you face the tip of a long weapon vs a close range enemy when blocking, rather than facing the player (this happens with manual blocking too). Everything else is true, though.

That being said, I'd much rather see one-handed damage buffed (or sweetspots widened) rather than nerfing other weapons. I'd also really like to see 1h stabs allowed far more rotation - they were hit the hardest by the turn speed nerf.

Tovi · « **Reply #58 on:** July 24, 2012, 07:45:12 am »

Here is the issue : set diffuculty to those longsword to 30.

deathbringer521 · « **Reply #59 on:** July 24, 2012, 08:37:07 am »

r u kidding? 2h stab glances a shiton

Author Topic: 2h stab (Read 3119 times)

Jarlek

Re: 2h stab

Tydeus

Re: 2h stab

CrazyCracka420

Re: 2h stab

dodnet

Re: 2h stab

CrazyCracka420

Re: 2h stab

Fuma Kotaro

Re: 2h stab

Laufknoten

Re: 2h stab

dodnet

Re: 2h stab

Zlisch_The_Butcher

Re: 2h stab

Haboe

Re: 2h stab

Herkkutatti666

Re: 2h stab

Leshma

Re: 2h stab

Vodner

Re: 2h stab

Tovi

Re: 2h stab

deathbringer521

Re: 2h stab