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Author Topic: Crossbow and Ranged Balance WITHOUT a Damage Nerf  (Read 2831 times)

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Offline Silveredge

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Crossbow and Ranged Balance WITHOUT a Damage Nerf
« on: July 14, 2012, 06:26:45 am »
+1
First off, let me start by saying that I am and have been a Crossbowman for quite some time.  In my opinion the crossbow user is a much better ranged unit then the an archer in most aspects.  They are far superior once they are forced into melee.  My character can stand toe to toe vs. any pure melee character and have a good chance of killing them with no clear disadvantage.  However if you compare that to any archer, they have a serious disadvantage because of the points needed for Power Draw.  The only real benefit an archer gets with the bow is the speed with which they can loose arrows.  My crossbowman can wear more armor, have more power strike, run just as fast, and be a very effective at ranged as well as melee combat.  I believe the reason for this is way too much flexibility with the class compared to Bowman and Throwers.

The crossbow is too useful with no wpf spent in it.  Being a 1 slot weapon this is very attractive to any melee character who has money and is frustrated with "all the ranged out there".  They equip the crossbow on top of their 2 slot polearm/greatsword with 1 stack of bolts and they too can be ranged.  The problem is that if you pretend the crossbow is accurate, more often then not, the bolt does fly in the middle of the huge crosshairs, hitting its target.  When anyone can throw a crossbow on their character and be a semi useful at ranged without spending any wpf it presents everyone with the ability to turn the game into a huge Range fest.   More and more we see rounds being dragged out by ranged classes, everyone has to wait and wait to get back into playing the game.  Nobody enjoys that part of the game.  Why not do something about it?  This brings me to my suggestion.

ALL Crossbows and Bows need to be 2 slots.

The benefit would be:
xbow cav would have 1 less stack of bolts
Crossbowmen would be more balanced vs. pure melee builds since they can't run around with the best 2 slot weapons in the game anymore.
Archers would lose 1 stack of arrows

Ranged units would not just shoot at anything that moves no matter what range it is away, they would actually make shots count.  If they really wanted to, they still have the 0 slot weapons, but overall ranged ammo would be lowered.  I believe throwers being limited was a step in the right direction, but this would balance out the game a lot more.  I really like the idea of ranged needing to actually take the time to aim and be good at their class.  Not just shoot at the mass of enemies until they get a headshot.  It also encourages them not to sit on yonder mountain, shooting until the end of the round without hitting anything and still having plenty of ammo to delay while all the spectators facepalm until the time runs out.

The best part of this would be that the effectiveness of the actual ranged weapons remain the same, there is no nerf to damage.  Instead the overall ranged spam would be toned down, players will concentrate on making those shots, sticking with their melee brethren, and be an actual effective support unit.  We would have much less of "ALWAYS TAKE THE SHOT, IM ALWAYS PEW PEWING WITHOUT REALLY AIMING".  Pure melee classes will not all walk around with a crossbow just because they can.  I believe it would be a better game for it.

I know that there will be people very opposed to this, but please take the time to think when you really care about how many shots you have left.  Pretty rare in my opinion, and I typically run around with 14 shots.  Crossbow(1 in the chamber), 1 stack of +3 bolts(13 bolts), and a 2h sword.  If I want to I switch to the Mace and have 2 stacks of bolts.  I can shoot the entire round from start to finish with 2 stacks of bolts.  With the change there is still the 0 slot 1h hammer for this option, but the class could not waltz around with any weapon they please as their secondary.

EDIT:  On top of it all, with the upcoming wpf update, it would be more of a welcome change if players get the wpf respec alongside this.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2012, 06:37:48 am by Silveredge »

Offline oohillac

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Re: Crossbow and Ranged Balance WITHOUT a Damage Nerf
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2012, 09:35:36 am »
+1
Good points, but I think archers are understated a bit.  A pure archer setup is much cheaper than a melee/crossbow hybrid.  Archers also have the advantage of not having to find cover to reload, and in open maps this is a massive benefit (seen this in Strat a lot with crossbow-heavy teams that get mowed down).  For the less accurate players, archers have the ability to fire immediately, making up for misses.

Offline bruce

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Re: Crossbow and Ranged Balance WITHOUT a Damage Nerf
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2012, 10:14:10 am »
0
Posting in a veiled "boost cav" thread.
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Offline Silveredge

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Re: Crossbow and Ranged Balance WITHOUT a Damage Nerf
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2012, 10:57:21 am »
0
Good points, but I think archers are understated a bit.  A pure archer setup is much cheaper than a melee/crossbow hybrid.  Archers also have the advantage of not having to find cover to reload, and in open maps this is a massive benefit (seen this in Strat a lot with crossbow-heavy teams that get mowed down).  For the less accurate players, archers have the ability to fire immediately, making up for misses.

Exactly what I stated above. ^^

Offline Miwiw

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Re: Crossbow and Ranged Balance WITHOUT a Damage Nerf
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2012, 12:42:10 pm »
0
Were you Archer before? I only see 2 bad points for Archers in this thread:

1) 1 quiver only if you take a 1 slot melee weapon, even with Horn Bow
2) a 0 slot weapon if 2 quivers

Most people would tend to the second option and ignore any melee skill. I'd do the same.

1 quiver wouldn't mean Archers wouldnt just "pew pew".
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Offline bruce

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Re: Crossbow and Ranged Balance WITHOUT a Damage Nerf
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2012, 12:50:55 pm »
0
I cannot think of any good points of this idea.

Ok, maybe vanilla crossbow which is a solid weapon becoming 2 slot. Maybe.
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Offline Count_Adhamar

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Re: Crossbow and Ranged Balance WITHOUT a Damage Nerf
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2012, 02:08:08 pm »
+1
Archers beat xbow at range, the only disadvantage the archer has is in melee combat as you stated. But this balances it out. Archer > xbow @ range, xbow > archer @ melee. Take Aderyn for example, he's always near the top of the scoreboard with a decent k/d, his arrows are like throwing lances in relation to the damage he does. He kills most people before they even get to him (not needing to melee), usually killing people in 1-2 shots... and you want to make the hunting xbow & light xbow 2 slots? no thanks, they are weak and not heavy so making them 2 slots isn't needed.  It takes more than 1-2 shots to kill someone with the light xbow unless you got a headshot or they were wounded or a peasant. You say you can get away with no wpf in xbow and still be good? The accuracy is shite with 1 point, you'd be lucky if you hit your target. Therefore it'd be a waste of money carrying one around. This implementation would also mean you'd have to be a 1h or mace user to use an xbow or bow, this is ludicrous. Being a hybrid makes this game less boring. Therefore I conclude with saying, this limitation isn't needed.

Offline Memento_Mori

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Re: Crossbow and Ranged Balance WITHOUT a Damage Nerf
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2012, 04:38:25 pm »
-2
Take Aderyn for example

MW rus bow, MW bodkins and you're comparing it to an unloomed light xbow or hunting xbow.

MW light xbow with MW steel bolts does nuts amounts of damage while needing almost no skill points.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2012, 04:44:54 pm by Memento_Mori »

Offline bruce

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Re: Crossbow and Ranged Balance WITHOUT a Damage Nerf
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2012, 04:44:57 pm »
0
But they still can't be fired on the run, and are still much shorter ranged weapons due to bolt speed which is in comparison much slower then arrow speed, for low end crossbows.

As for the "no requirement", it would be nice if they could be changed to:
(a) require wpf
(b) have their damage modified by wpf, with naturally lower damage with 0 wpf

Then investing something (even if it's WM points, it is points) to be able to use one would be required. However, it is worth noting that current crossbows without wpf aren't really accurate. Sure, you might hit something at short range, but since you can't really fire on the run, unless you're playing as a crossbowman you will only get a few shots off.
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Offline Memento_Mori

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Re: Crossbow and Ranged Balance WITHOUT a Damage Nerf
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2012, 04:46:44 pm »
-2
But they still can't be fired on the run, and are still much shorter ranged weapons due to bolt speed which is in comparison much slower then arrow speed, for low end crossbows.

bolt speed is faster than arrows, xbows can shoot at further range easier due to the faster projectile speed which in comparison is much faster than arrow speed for everything, the HUNTING XBOW projectiles travel 2 faster than the unloomed longbow.

True story.

Offline bruce

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Re: Crossbow and Ranged Balance WITHOUT a Damage Nerf
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2012, 04:47:32 pm »
0
bolt speed is faster than arrows

Arrow speed is modified by PD.
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Offline Memento_Mori

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Re: Crossbow and Ranged Balance WITHOUT a Damage Nerf
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2012, 04:50:33 pm »
-2
Arrow speed is modified by PD.

So... With 9 pd and a longbow you still wont have the projectile speed of a normal crossbow, probably barely even a light xbow. lol

Offline bruce

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Re: Crossbow and Ranged Balance WITHOUT a Damage Nerf
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2012, 05:19:30 pm »
+1
I don't for certain know how big the speed bonus per level of PD; if it is 14% (like damage), then easily all bows outdo every crossbow but arbalest when it comes to arrow speed.


However, it's quite obvious that all bows in hands of non-peasant archers have better arrow speeds then hunting/light/normal crossbow.
Best ban reason ever:
Quote from: Wookimonsta
I checked, the only Vagabond I found was Wolves_Vagabond_TheCruel, that guy is now unbanned. Ban reason was: "calling Zotte a cockswoggler".

Offline Strider

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Re: Crossbow and Ranged Balance WITHOUT a Damage Nerf
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2012, 06:37:35 pm »
-1
Some things I can agree with. Many things not.
Changing all bows/xbows to 2 slots really wouldn't effect me cuz i use arbalest. But i think items like the hunting xbow and short bow should stay 1 slot. I do think the normal Crossbow and the Yumi should both be changed to 2 slots.

Yeah i agree we should get a respec along with the wpf update.

Offline Torost

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Re: Crossbow and Ranged Balance WITHOUT a Damage Nerf
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2012, 08:05:35 pm »
-1
I made a similar post earlier. Glad someone else sees what to me is obvious.

Making all crossbows 2slot would resolve alot of the problems.

I always use the 2slot Rusbow, so maybe I am abit biased.

Making all the bows 2slot im not sure, archery has all these nonsensical limitations put on it. So should remove them atleast before messing with the bowslots.

One other problem aswell is the fact that its very cheap to use a 1slot crossbow with bolts.

The arrows break very frequently, no decreased breakchance by wpf, and for bodkins this is huge.
I make no gold when I use Rusbow + 2 stacks of bodkins.

Bolts on the other hand cost close to nothing.

The whole hunting crossbow and bolts cost less than one stack of bodkins.