Author Topic: Devs, Please Stop "Fixing" Things that Aren't Broke  (Read 4877 times)

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Offline Joker86

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Re: Devs, Please Stop "Fixing" Things that Aren't Broke
« Reply #60 on: July 09, 2012, 09:33:58 pm »
+1
I think you mix up "fixing" with "improving" in general. Banana leafs were not broken, but yet we are using toilet paper these days.

The developers have their very own idea of how the game should be like, and the helicopter moves from older versions of the game apparently didn't fit to it. So they got removed.

And if you will come up with the popular argument of dumbing melee down: depends. One could argue that more restrictions make melee more difficult, and a more difficult melee requires more skill.

And perhaps the developers want to improve teamplay and collaboration between the different classes, and if the price is "dumbing down" melee, then be it! And suddenly pikemen can't jump (I hate jumpthrusts anyway, look retarded, remove them!) and spin like mad to win 1 on 1 duels (or even more enemies simultaneously  :shock: ) any more, but are forced to follow other players to support them from the second row. Because that is the idea the developers have of the game.

Players always have following point of view:
"How can I maximize my performance with my/any class?"

But developers have this point of view:
"How should the game feel and be played like, and how can I make the players doing so?"


P.S.: still I feel sorry for the first replies you got. That's in no way acceptable, and I hope it doesn't represent the majority of the community. Telling someone to go and die is not nice and should not be said unless the person really really really REALLY REALLY tried to piss everyone off, behaved totally unacceptable and seems not only to be, but also deliberately behaving like an asshole. WHich I couldn't find in your OP.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2012, 09:37:49 pm by Joker86 »
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Haboe

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Re: Devs, Please Stop "Fixing" Things that Aren't Broke
« Reply #61 on: July 09, 2012, 09:37:51 pm »
0
But.... a second ago you said such moves weren't possible....

Clearly, they are.

It's okay to admit you were wrong.  Shows character.

Again.. READ

Yes im saying that even with the training soldiers got at those time it is NOT POSSIBLE to perform a (jumping) spinning attack with a pike while wearing plate armor.

I said this move isnt possible in PLATE ARMOR with the training a SOLDIER gets.

That guys trainign looks more like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKVLlrp3lN0

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Offline Joker86

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Re: Devs, Please Stop "Fixing" Things that Aren't Broke
« Reply #62 on: July 09, 2012, 09:42:40 pm »
0
P.S.: Imagine jumping and spinning here.
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline [ptx]

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Re: Devs, Please Stop "Fixing" Things that Aren't Broke
« Reply #63 on: July 09, 2012, 09:44:56 pm »
0
P.S.: still I feel sorry for the first replies you got. That's in no way acceptable, and I hope it doesn't represent the majority of the community. Telling someone to go and die is not nice and should not be said unless the person really really really REALLY REALLY tried to piss everyone off, behaved totally unacceptable and seems not only to be, but also deliberately behaving like an asshole. WHich I couldn't find in your OP.
You do know he faked his own "tragic" death to get at the community here?

Offline Haboe

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Re: Devs, Please Stop "Fixing" Things that Aren't Broke
« Reply #64 on: July 09, 2012, 09:48:40 pm »
0
True that, a pikeman didnt get trained in fast spinning attacks...

But the turnspeed nerf has been posted before, this was to tell devs stop fixing things that dont need fixing.

So back to the main issue, i'd say they are doing an awesome job in improving this mod and i dont see your problems...
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Offline Joker86

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Re: Devs, Please Stop "Fixing" Things that Aren't Broke
« Reply #65 on: July 09, 2012, 09:48:58 pm »
0
You do know he faked his own "tragic" death to get at the community here?

I did not.

Still having faked his own death and later complaining about a change doesn't really justify a death sentence by the community, I'd say.  :P

Being a polite and kind person doesn't mean to be kind and polite only when the other person is, too.  :wink:
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Spook Island

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Re: Devs, Please Stop "Fixing" Things that Aren't Broke
« Reply #66 on: July 09, 2012, 09:53:02 pm »
0
I think you mix up "fixing" with "improving" in general. Banana leafs were not broken, but yet we are using toilet paper these days.

The developers have their very own idea of how the game should be like, and the helicopter moves from older versions of the game apparently didn't fit to it. So they got removed.

And if you will come up with the popular argument of dumbing melee down: depends. One could argue that more restrictions make melee more difficult, and a more difficult melee requires more skill.

And perhaps the developers want to improve teamplay and collaboration between the different classes, and if the price is "dumbing down" melee, then be it! And suddenly pikemen can't jump (I hate jumpthrusts anyway, look retarded, remove them!) and spin like mad to win 1 on 1 duels (or even more enemies simultaneously  :shock: ) any more, but are forced to follow other players to support them from the second row. Because that is the idea the developers have of the game.

Players always have following point of view:
"How can I maximize my performance with my/any class?"

But developers have this point of view:
"How should the game feel  and being played like, and how can I make the players doing so?"


P.S.: still I feel sorry for the first replies you got. That's in no way acceptable, and I hope it doesn't represent the majority of the community. Telling someone to go and die is not nice and should not be said unless the person really really really REALLY REALLY tried to piss everyone off, behaved totally unacceptable and seems not only to be, but also deliberately behaving like an asshole. WHich I couldn't find in your OP.


Removing individual capability to "force" desired styles of teamplay is an extremely slippery slope that leads nowhere but down.  Also, no offense to the balance team, but I am 100% sure that is not what they were trying to do.  Instead I believe they were creating another mess for themselves to have to clean up; inspired by completely unreasonable demands on what constitutes as "realistic" in a game that is already rather limited in terms of what moves can be performed. 
As the videos I've posted in this topic have shown, their idea of "realistic" is extremely limited compared to what is reasonably capable and proven (even by amateurs on youtube) by what well disciplined and lifelong trained-warriors can handle; such as those who would exist on such battlefields as those we wage war on.

This same slippery slope argument could apply to further unreasonable nerfs that would also serve to remove excitement and instill strict limitations, proven unrealistic, on players.  Also, why should ground combatants have to make such drastic sacrifices while cavalry and ranged are free to continue roaming however they'd like uninhibited.

Ground combat is the core of the game.  It should be the most robust, exciting, and versatile if it is to stay that way.
The new spin nerf has taken a rather gigantic leap toward eroding that.
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Offline Spook Island

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Re: Devs, Please Stop "Fixing" Things that Aren't Broke
« Reply #67 on: July 09, 2012, 09:56:00 pm »
0
You do know he faked his own "tragic" death to get at the community here?

I didn't fake anything.  There are multiple people that use this account.
It's just that you realize you don't have an argument at this point and instead go for any scrap you can muster to make your point which is rooted in emotion rather than realism and intellectual honesty.
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Offline Allers

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Re: Devs, Please Stop "Fixing" Things that Aren't Broke
« Reply #68 on: July 09, 2012, 09:58:43 pm »
-1
Yes you did youre RepoMan
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Offline Zlisch_The_Butcher

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Re: Devs, Please Stop "Fixing" Things that Aren't Broke
« Reply #69 on: July 09, 2012, 10:01:03 pm »
0
why is it only americans complaining about the changes?
Fuck you, Bjord is complaining, and Spook is a ghost, not a real American.
1H stab is the fastest, strongest and longest 1H animation. There's no reason NOT to use it in all instances. I don't know if it's OP, but it's boring. 1H used to be fun because you had a fast (left), long (right) and the most devastating attack (stab) and had to choose the best attack for each occasion.

Offline Spook Island

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Re: Devs, Please Stop "Fixing" Things that Aren't Broke
« Reply #70 on: July 09, 2012, 10:05:44 pm »
0
P.S.: Imagine jumping and spinning here.

We can't exactly crouch or crawl either  :lol:

But I think the main point here is that we sacrifice some ability in certain areas to perhaps have more ability in other areas.
The total argument I've seen for realism in this topic has relied solely off the idea of spinning with one completely specific weapon: the pike.

If we're going to remove an entire game mechanic because it may not be entirely 100% realistic and copacetic with one extremely specific weapon, then you have a sure-fire recipe for destroying this mod in no-time at all.

It isn't entirely realistic for a horse to hit a tree head-first, riding 30 mph, and take no damage, does that mean we should remove horses from the game because it doesn't gel with how we feel the game should realistically play?  I'll tell you right now that is a lot more unrealistic than this pike spinning people are using to crucify vertical spinning.

There comes a point when you just have to say "okay I'm playing a game and it's not worth ruining just because everything might not be 100% realistic in my eyes."
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Offline Haboe

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Re: Devs, Please Stop "Fixing" Things that Aren't Broke
« Reply #71 on: July 09, 2012, 10:13:17 pm »
0
Yes and the thing is that most players think its going right now and a small group thinks the mod is raped.
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Offline Spook Island

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Re: Devs, Please Stop "Fixing" Things that Aren't Broke
« Reply #72 on: July 09, 2012, 10:22:59 pm »
0
Yes and the thing is that most players think its going right now and a small group thinks the mod is raped.

There was a poll in one of the suggestion topics discussing improving the turning speed and there were roughly 10% more for improving the speed than against.   I can go find the topic if you'd like to see it.  The majority of people I've talked to feel the same way, but many haven't bothered to speak up because they feel it's useless to do so and that there's "no point."

Sadly, a lot of NA players are starting to get under the impression this game is held hostage by the complaints of EU players only.
I don't know if they are right or not.   Depending on the result of this nerf repeal I guess we'll find out.

But I have no desire to compromise on this issue.
They need to repeal the entire nerf and admit they made a mistake based off kneejerk reactions to pikespinning.

I'm usually all for compromise to solve a problem, but not when one side is so completely wrong.
You have to draw a line in the sand eventually, and this is that time for me personally.
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Offline Momo

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Re: Devs, Please Stop "Fixing" Things that Aren't Broke
« Reply #73 on: July 09, 2012, 10:23:02 pm »
0
We can't exactly crouch or crawl either  :lol:

But I think the main point here is that we sacrifice some ability in certain areas to perhaps have more ability in other areas.
The total argument I've seen for realism in this topic has relied solely off the idea of spinning with one completely specific weapon: the pike.

If we're going to remove an entire game mechanic because it may not be entirely 100% realistic and copacetic with one extremely specific weapon, then you have a sure-fire recipe for destroying this mod in no-time at all.

It isn't entirely realistic for a horse to hit a tree head-first, riding 30 mph, and take no damage, does that mean we should remove horses from the game because it doesn't gel with how we feel the game should realistically play?  I'll tell you right now that is a lot more unrealistic than this pike spinning people are using to crucify vertical spinning.

There comes a point when you just have to say "okay I'm playing a game and it's not worth ruining just because everything might not be 100% realistic in my eyes."

Derp, if you died once STAY DEAD at least. Attention whore.
I was the first one who started -1-ing everyone, now everyone does it to everyone.

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Offline Joker86

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Re: Devs, Please Stop "Fixing" Things that Aren't Broke
« Reply #74 on: July 09, 2012, 10:26:01 pm »
0
As the videos I've posted in this topic have shown, their idea of "realistic" is extremely limited compared to what is reasonably capable and proven (even by amateurs on youtube) by what well disciplined and lifelong trained-warriors can handle; such as those who would exist on such battlefields as those we wage war on.

Although I think realism has very little to do with a matter like developing cRPG (or balance questions in general), but I don't think that spinning and jumping were common techniques on the battlefields. So if the goal is to make the game look more realistic, I have to say: mission accomplished!

A fat Chinaman wildly swinging a toy spear around without wearing armour or the intention to pierce some armour with his weapon doesn't make spin jumps realistic.

Removing individual capability to "force" desired styles of teamplay is an extremely slippery slope that leads nowhere but down.

That's plainly and simply wrong. Limitations and weaknesses are one of the most basic game design elements at all.


Also, no offense to the balance team, but I am 100% sure that is not what they were trying to do.  Instead I believe they were creating another mess for themselves to have to clean up; inspired by completely unreasonable demands on what constitutes as "realistic" in a game that is already rather limited in terms of what moves can be performed.

While I agree on the limitations the game puts on realism, I have to say the first part is nowhere near to being taken seriously. You really want to imply that the developers deliberately break their game to fix it afterwards to... eermm... well... not being forced to say one day: "Mod finished"? Really?  :shock:

This same slippery slope argument could apply to further unreasonable nerfs that would also serve to remove excitement and instill strict limitations, proven unrealistic, on players.

Yes, it could apply to further nerfs. And just to put things right: you haven't proven that spinning with long, heavy weapons (not a 1,7m bamboo mini spear) is well doable, nor is excitement something objectively measurable. To me cooperation with other players is excitement. I play a BF2 mod which is called "Project Reality". If you stand still for a few seconds, you weapon hits where it is aiming at, and one or two bullets lready kill. When moving, you can't hit the broad side of a barn. If you encounter two or more enemies on your own, chances are almost 100% you will die. You need to work with your teammates, listen to the suqad leader and team commander, and communitcate constantly. There is no "skill" like aiming and reflexes involved at all. The game is tremendous fun.

The only question left is: do the developers want a Counter Strike game, or rather something like I just described? If it is latter, you have bad luck, as you can't do anything about it. It's the wrong game for you. But most likely they want something in between, which means both of us can get satisfied with the game, but none of us will be 100% conent. We both have to deal with it.


Also, why should ground combatants have to make such drastic sacrifices while cavalry and ranged are free to continue roaming however they'd like uninhibited.

The sacrifice isn't that drastic, and archers and cavalry have suffered a lot of nerfs before. Really a lot.

Ground combat is the core of the game.  It should be the most robust, exciting, and versatile if it is to stay that way.
The new spin nerf has taken a rather gigantic leap toward eroding that.

I guess it's not to stay that way.  :?

We can't exactly crouch or crawl either  :lol:

But I think the main point here is that we sacrifice some ability in certain areas to perhaps have more ability in other areas.
The total argument I've seen for realism in this topic has relied solely off the idea of spinning with one completely specific weapon: the pike.

If we're going to remove an entire game mechanic because it may not be entirely 100% realistic and copacetic with one extremely specific weapon, then you have a sure-fire recipe for destroying this mod in no-time at all.

It isn't entirely realistic for a horse to hit a tree head-first, riding 30 mph, and take no damage, does that mean we should remove horses from the game because it doesn't gel with how we feel the game should realistically play?  I'll tell you right now that is a lot more unrealistic than this pike spinning people are using to crucify vertical spinning.

There comes a point when you just have to say "okay I'm playing a game and it's not worth ruining just because everything might not be 100% realistic in my eyes."

As I said, I don't like realism arguments either. But on the other hand it doesn't hurt to make it a bit more realistic where it's possible.

And many people, me included, think that spin stabs and overheads are a lame mechanic. People are not supposed to turn their back towards the enemy, stabbing is supposed to work in a straight line, not in a circle, same for overheads, and that's it. Yes, you got less possibilities than before. Just accept the fact that you actually never have been supposed to have those possibilities. Because all of YOUR arguments would also apply on a bug where everyone was able to jump 20m, with all the other gameplay impacts this would bring like maulers airstriking into the enemy cluster, knocking an archer down and jumping away before the rest realizes what just happened.
Joker makes a very good point.
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