Author Topic: America is not the greatest country anymore  (Read 4844 times)

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Offline Tibe

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Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2012, 05:55:14 pm »
+1
Why the hell are you taking a piss at USA? Im not a big fan of America  nor its wars either and it has massive problems but its not that bad, that you would make a full essay of it...... 

There are far worse countries to discuss about, no point of trying to convince people to turn against USA cause I dont think you would achieve anything with that.


Offline Tagora

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Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2012, 06:13:51 pm »
+1
Why the hell are you taking a piss at USA? Im not a big fan of America  nor its wars either and it has massive problems but its not that bad, that you would make a full essay of it...... 

There are far worse countries to discuss about, no point of trying to convince people to turn against USA cause I dont think you would achieve anything with that.

The United States is my home.  I was born here and I love living here.  The problem lies in the way my neighbors give up their civil rights because they do not accept the responsibility of upholding the constitution.  Our ignorance simply catches up to us, as it did in all of those instances, as it did in the fiscal collapse of 2008, as it did in Iraq and still in Afghanistan, as our credit rating is downgraded, and unstable regimes in developing nations discover atomic power.  When we should be subsidizing small businesses instead of paying for corporations to ship and peddle their electronics to our uneducated citizens.  When we should be passing legislation in our government that makes it fiscally transparent, we're passing legislation that includes torture.  Realize that if you're an American, law can and will be used against you.  The lack of public funding will reverberate and negatively affect you and your loved ones.  I'm not trying to scare you into voting one way or another, I'm just trying to spark some curiosity in people's souls so that they research that which is destroying democracy.

Besides, the argument that some countries are worse off than America doesn't mean that America can't improve, you're just skewing reality.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 06:28:53 pm by Tagora »
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Offline Beauchamp

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Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2012, 06:19:50 pm »
+1
Murmillus_Prime: could you name a few examples when American intervention also led to a better world?
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Offline Murmillus_Prime

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Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2012, 06:20:02 pm »
+1
The difference is in America where generally speaking, access to education, healthcare, and employment is relatively easy to find when you compare us to developing nations.  You cannot argue that a developing nation is equally accountable to crime until you have given the world an equally distributed amount of power and resources to fight crime.  I've traveled to Mexico and visited where the average pay ranged from $4-8 a day for a worker who sometimes worked consecutive six hour shifts.  Drug dealing was fairly common.  Still, the people living there were some of the kindest, most gentle people I've ever had the pleasure of meeting.  I saw families who were crossing the border, I even talked to a few people who did cross the border.  Do you have any idea how much they lost to try to make it to America where they did not face constant economic strife and persecution?  One man lost his child, another has an untreated leg injury, and another left his family behind when he was found and deported.  Oh yeah, for all of you people who enjoy statistics, here's one: over 2,000 to 3,000 people have died in the last 10 years attempting to cross the border.  Honestly, your comment just sounded like someone who has no concept of poverty and what it forces people to do to survive.

So let's try to think of a few things that are fucked up in America in recent times (post-ww2 right?) , besides the deportation and exploitation of an ethnic group.
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rXPrfnU3G0
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_drug_trafficking
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NDAA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Drugs
http://www.fdic.gov/bank/individual/failed/banklist.html
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB53/index.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guatemalan_Civil_War
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmGcaOkRsTU
http://www.flagrancy.net/timeline.html

These are all documented instances of American abuses of power, or institutions relating to American private interests propped by American foreign policy.  These are not conspiracies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctions_against_Iraq
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Orange
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'%C3%A9tat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuxnet

http://www.haaretz.com/news/israel-threat-to-attack-iran-is-not-a-bluff-deputy-fm-says-1.4639
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/01/us-iran-idUSBRE8600HG20120701

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/us-defends-drone-strikes-despite-civilian-deaths.aspx?pageID=238&nID=19691&NewsCatID=358
http://rt.com/usa/news/drones-civilian-death-obama-187/

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/2011/08/its_not_what_we_ought_to_do_but_what_we_can_do.html <<< Lol?
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-skeptics/intervention-libya-syria-isn%E2%80%99t-humanitarian-or-liberal-6739
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 06:24:44 pm by Murmillus_Prime »
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Offline Murmillus_Prime

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Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2012, 06:20:40 pm »
+1
Murmillus_Prime: could you name a few examples when American intervention also led to a better world?

If all it did was deliver us to a much more bloody wide-scale third world war, then no. The amount of countries the U.S has attacked or tried to change the regime in ,or breached its sovereignty goes into double figures, American intervention delivered American dominance which does as it wishes, imposes its will and its corrupt politicians will through the military arm upon poor and stable nations and turns them into sectarian hell holes where, if war crimes actually mattered to the west, and weren't just used as a political tool, then they'd be imprisoning all the criminals, not only some of them who  stand in the way politically or financially (to corporations and monetary institutions like the IMF).
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 06:36:17 pm by Murmillus_Prime »
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Offline Tibe

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Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2012, 06:49:57 pm »
+1
The United States is my home.  I was born here and I love living here.  The problem lies in the way my neighbors give up their civil rights because they do not accept the responsibility of upholding the constitution.  Our ignorance simply catches up to us, as it did in all of those instances, as it did in the fiscal collapse of 2008, as it did in Iraq and still in Afghanistan, as our credit rating is downgraded, and unstable regimes in developing nations discover atomic power.  When we should be subsidizing small businesses instead of paying for corporations to ship and peddle their electronics to our uneducated citizens.  When we should be passing legislation in our government that makes it fiscally transparent, we're passing legislation that includes torture.  Realize that if you're an American, law can and will be used against you.  The lack of public funding will reverberate and negatively affect you and your loved ones.  I'm not trying to scare you into voting one way or another, I'm just trying to spark some curiosity in people's souls so that they research that which is destroying democracy.

Besides, the argument that some countries are worse off than America doesn't mean that America can't improve, you're just skewing reality.

That was not the point. America can improve, im certain of it. I simply ment its typical for the observers to see and complain about it. Yes, its sad that every time USA declares war our guys from EU are dragged along with it and the rate of illiteracy and crime is quite huge in USA. But thats the problems u get when u have a big nation, corruption and loads of other problems.

Its typical for observers from other countries to start complainin how the overall  system in USA is broken, while they themselves are giving very little for their own community. If you start really thinking about it, rather than complainin, I dont think any of us would come up with anything that whould solve the american problems.

And whats with this constant democracy crap all the time? The first rule of democracy is that u can do whatever u like aslong as it doesnt limit the freedoms of another individual. U can bend that rule as you please really. Its scientifically proven that democracy gets its power from stupid voters. Its quite odd that this is the only barely working system that partly works with us humans.

Offline Tagora

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Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2012, 06:54:52 pm »
+1
That was not the point. America can improve, im certain of it. I simply ment its typical for the observers to see and complain about it. Yes, its sad that every time USA declares war our guys from EU are dragged along with it and the rate of illiteracy and crime is quite huge in USA. But thats the problems u get when u have a big nation, corruption and loads of other problems.

Its typical for observers from other countries to start complainin how the overall  system in USA is broken, while they themselves are giving very little for their own community. If you start really thinking about it, rather than complainin, I dont think any of us would come up with anything that whould solve the american problems.

And whats with this constant democracy crap all the time? The first rule of democracy is that u can do whatever u like aslong as it doesnt limit the freedoms of another individual. U can bend that rule as you please really. Its scientifically proven that democracy gets its power from stupid voters. Its quite odd that this is the only barely working system that partly works with us humans.

Well, at least the United States with all their problems still plays a meaningful role in the world while most European countries have become irrelevant with 120% of GDP going to service debt over 50 years old.

jk
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Offline Beauchamp

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Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2012, 07:00:02 pm »
+2
If all it did was deliver us to a much more bloody wide-scale third world war, then no. The amount of countries the U.S has attacked or tried to change the regime in ,or breached its sovereignty goes into double figures, American intervention delivered American dominance which does as it wishes, imposes its will and its corrupt politicians will through the military arm upon poor and stable nations and turns them into sectarian hell holes where, if war crimes actually mattered to the west, and weren't just used as a political tool, then they'd be imprisoning all the criminals, not only some of them who  stand in the way politically or financially (to corporations and monetary institutions like the IMF).

u're really "black n'white" kind of person
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Offline Murmillus_Prime

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Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2012, 07:14:01 pm »
+1
u're really "black n'white" kind of person

We all profit, only because the elite profit, when the elite don't profit, we don't profit, when they don't profit, they start wars to ensure they do profit, to ensure that we profit, to keep us subdued, content and ignorant to their crimes against humanity, individual freedom and privacy.

Some say oil makes the west go round, well without the spilling of blood that wouldn't really be the case. Although it's more complicated than Oil, rare earth minerals have become a very sought after commodity now, water too is soon becoming a commodity which blood will be spilt over, the principle is the same.

This elite class that orders our armies, bluffs freedom, fixes the elections, that determines how the higher echelons of society are run, and allows them to run badly as long as a purpose or agenda is served, has meetings with their globalist buddies and discuss world population reduction, discuss how less wasteful we can all be, discuss how to be more efficient with our lives, while they all go home to their mansions where they own their own islands or football field sized gardens with swimming pools, living in houses that require mini power stations to power, and flying all over the world multiple times a year just to enjoy themselves in another part of the world, these people who enjoy the most out of life don't want ol peasant joe to threaten their existence, they are acting against the possibility of joe becoming a thorn in their toe, restricting internet freedom, restricting privacy, snooping in peoples private lives, stamping out protest, stamping out self determination, stamping out sovereignty, all because each and every one threatens their lively hoods at the top of the pyramid of shit.

After all, we only feed off their shit, and if they aren't eating enough, then there isn't enough shit for the peasants to eat, then the peasants will shake the tree and down they come.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 07:23:47 pm by Murmillus_Prime »
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Offline LordBerenger

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Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2012, 07:19:12 pm »
-2
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Offline Oberyn

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Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2012, 07:50:41 pm »
+1
Read some history. It's kind of hard to rail about the horrible injustices perpetrated by the horrible elite when compared to...any other time in human existence. Your idea of fairness and justice (first of all, completely dictated by occidental political ideology) has only ever existed as a theoretical construct. We're closer to it now than we have EVER been in the entire history of humanity, and getting closer. Judging by your interpretation humanity has reached the pinacle of horrifying warfare, bloodshedding, propaganda and jingoism at this precise moment in time with the fascist US empire...again, do you know any history? At all? Do you want to compare it to literally any other empire? Not to give them too much credit, it was entirely due to MAD, without nuclear weapons WW2 would've quickly devolved into WW3, they walked softly and carried a big stick because they knew the big stick was so big it would take them out too, not because they're so fucking benelovent as they like to paint themselves. OF COURSE the nation-state still acts in a selfish manner...that's what it's there for, that's the reason behind the continued existence of every nation-state.
Ironically you want them to act as if they were responsable for the entire world, as in, a one world government?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 07:53:53 pm by Oberyn »
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Offline Murmillus_Prime

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Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
« Reply #41 on: July 03, 2012, 08:09:27 pm »
+1
Read some history. It's kind of hard to rail about the horrible injustices perpetrated by the horrible elite when compared to...any other time in human existence. Your idea of fairness and justice (first of all, completely dictated by occidental political ideology) has only ever existed as a theoretical construct. We're closer to it now than we have EVER been in the entire history of humanity, and getting closer. Judging by your interpretation humanity has reached the pinacle of horrifying warfare, bloodshedding, propaganda and jingoism at this precise moment in time with the fascist US empire...again, do you know any history? At all? Do you want to compare it to literally any other empire? Not to give them too much credit, it was entirely due to MAD, without nuclear weapons WW2 would've quickly devolved into WW3, they walked softly and carried a big stick because they knew the big stick was so big it would take them out too, not because they're so fucking benelovent as they like to paint themselves. OF COURSE the nation-state still acts in a selfish manner...that's what it's there for, that's the reason behind the continued existence of every nation-state.
Ironically you want them to act as if they were responsable for the entire world, as in, a one world government?

I don't want them to act as in one world government, I want our nations to progress not shackle themselves to the bloody slime of corruption that has dominated the ruling classes ever since there has been a ruling class, which by the way has existed for thousands of years in one shape or form, so no I'm not ignorant to the history Oberyn I'm simply focusing on now, you know the 21st Century, this "modern" age, by speaking my opinion, my 21st century opinion on the ill conduct of a corrupt state built on lies and bones but smelling of roses with disney in your faces and mcdonalds down your guts where anyone can become a billionaire, where freedom is protected, and justice rules over the land, where the fairy's dance and pink elephants float, I'm sharing the cold hard truths of our existences, not sticking my head in the sand and hope it all goes away, that it has no consequence to my or anyone else's lives that I care about, people like to stick their heads in the sand and take it up the ass and just put up with it because they've been bred to be obedient and to shut up, when we're all rushing to jump off the sinking ship but we aren't allowed to because a gun is being pointed at our heads what are you going to do? Accept it, it's happening just accept it?
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Offline Tibe

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Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
« Reply #42 on: July 03, 2012, 08:12:05 pm »
+1
USA has Linkin Park! I forgive Uncle Sams flaws just for that.  :mrgreen:





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Offline Oberyn

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Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
« Reply #43 on: July 03, 2012, 08:15:16 pm »
+2
The internet, and access to it, is going to change everything. It's going to have a bigger impact than telephone, than flight, than television to instore a true feeling of brotherhood and acceptance across all races, religions, ethnicities, whatever. We are living through those moments right now, it's not even close to having reached it's full potential, and people like you being outraged because reality doesn't represent the idealistic image of how things "should" be is a part of it, but I like to approach it with perspective.

Looking on the past and present people as if they are some sort of selfish animals is pretty easy for people who haev the luxury of having an overflow of information and knowledge, to the point that sifting the nuggest of gold from the crap is the true challenge. For many of them the world was and still is limited to their blood relations, their tribes, their clans, their neighborhood, their city, their nation, their religion, etc. People relate themselves to each other this way, there is no getting around it.

The only sensible option if you want your ideal world of true justice and freedom is to grow that feeling of "belonging" as large as possible. Nerdy as fuck, but I'm going to have to bring Watchmen (the coming book/movie thing) as a hypothetical example...I think Reagan (I fucking hate the cunt, but still quoting him in this case) said something along those lines as well, that if ever the planet was threatened by some sort of outside "alien" race we could unite the planet in about a week.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 08:21:36 pm by Oberyn »
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Offline Tagora

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Re: America is not the greatest country anymore
« Reply #44 on: July 03, 2012, 08:23:12 pm »
+1
I'm not sure what you're saying, that violence isn't important because comparatively speaking in history we're not mongols sacking a roman city? Or that we're at the pinnacle of western civilization?  Are you kidding me?  Every major western civilization has thought that.  Greece, Rome, Britain, and now the United States.  Now you're beginning to understand the failed egocentric approach that's plagued the world since before written history.  See "Homer".
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