America is not the greatest country anymore

[Oberyn]

I'm not sure what you're saying, that violence isn't important because comparatively speaking in history we're not mongols sacking a roman city? Or that we're at the pinnacle of western civilization?  Are you kidding me?  Every major western civilization has thought that.  Greece, Rome, Britain, and now the United States.  Now you're beginning to understand the failed egocentric approach that's plagued the world since before written history.  See "Homer".

How has it failed, exactly? Bring up literally any statistic that has to do with human wellbeing, across the entire world, and compare it now with 100 years ago. And it's not a "western" civilization thing, they are only the latest link in a loooong chain of knowledge that stretches all the way back to the dawn of civilization itself. Modern "western" civilization could never have existed without the dozens of other major civilizations that existed before and concurrently with them across the planet. I self-identify myself as part of a western civ, but I don't need to attribute the entire modern world to it uniquely, which would be patently false.

[Tagora]

That's a typical white and/or privileged world view, and I'm paraphrasing "things have never been better" because while you're the guy wearing your comfy Nike's, you're not the guy who has worked for the past 5-10 years in a sweatshop making them.  Nonetheless, I think it's interesting every time someone asks me to validate my claims when there's no objective way you can possibly measure happiness spanning 3000~ years.  GG. You win. Enjoy white hegemony.

[[ptx]]

Every major western civilization? Apart from the fall of Rome, when has there been a change/fall/decline/loss of western civilization? Or civilization as such? South American civilizations are an isolated case. We are still here and have been for thousands of years now in some form or shape, have we not? We have also improved on pretty much all aspects of being constantly.
Sure, there are ways to improve and we should never cease to look for those (i still think demarchy could be, to some extent, incorporated into our current form of democracy), but complaining and whining about how everything is conspired against us and how the world is horrible and bad and evil is, to my mind, outright retarded and makes you just an annoying dead weight to the progress of humanity as such.
Oh, and, if you think that complaining about stuff somehow makes you the part of the aware minority or some such thing and everyone who disagrees are sheeple - you couldn't be more wrong. Meh, most people i know, and in fact, most people over here, commenting on news portals and such, are like you - an irritating background buzz of whine and tears.

[Tagora]

Every major western civilization? Apart from the fall of Rome, when has there been a change/fall/decline/loss of western civilization? We are still here and have been for thousands of years now in some form or shape, have we not? We have also improved on pretty much all aspects of being constantly.
Sure, there are ways to improve and we should never cease to look for those (i still think demarchy could be, to some extent, incorporated into our current form of democracy), but complaining and whining about how everything is conspired against us and how the world is horrible and bad and evil is, to my mind, outright retarded and makes you just an annoying dead weight to the progress of humanity as such.
Oh, and, if you think that complaining about stuff somehow makes you the part of the aware minority or some such thing and everyone who disagrees are sheeple - you couldn't be more wrong. Meh, most people i know, and in fact, most people over here, commenting on news portals and such, are like you - an irritating background buzz of whine and tears.

Uh..oh a bad ass emerges who admits there's a fallacy in his argument

Apart from the fall of Rome

and then like boss, goes on to insult someone and dismiss independent thinking.  Ok, let's just persecute every dissenting voice like the chocolate chip cookie's, Her Himmler. 

Edit:  And I should add that though we have not lost the academics driving western civilization, I think you will find one thing common in all of those nations/civilizations that I mentioned:

Decadence, fading away from an imperialist, blood-hungry dominant society.  You don't even realize that's what your advocating and you tell me to look up history.  Why don't you go talk to a historian about how great the British empire was, or Rome.  We're the same except that we've prohibited slaves, contracting that out to multinationals who operate in third world countries ruined by western administration.

[Nessaj]

I think Reagan (I fucking hate the cunt, but still quoting him in this case) said something along those lines as well, that if ever the planet was threatened by some sort of outside "alien" race we could unite the planet in about a week.

Unification against a common enemy is (and will most likely always) be our only path of redemption. Therefore, space exploration > rest

Reagan actually mentioned parts of the 'alien threat'-stuff several times (at some University, to Gorbachev and more) in different speeches but the most known one is from his Disarmament speech at the UN general assembly in 1988 (or 87 cba google ). Interesting fact though, Reagan him self insisted on adding the 'alien threat' part to his speech more than once, whereas his personal speech writer, Rhett Dawson, removed these comments from the original draft and wanted more Anti-Soviet rhetoric. Reagan though insisted on adding it back.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Transcript of the Alien part in the UN speech:

“in our obsession with antagonisms of the moment, we often forget how much unites all the members of humanity. Perhaps we need some outside, universal threat to make us recognize this common bond. I occasionally think, how quickly our differences worldwide would vanish if we were facing an alien threat from outside this world. And yet, I ask is not an alien force ALREADY among us? What could be more alien to the universal aspirations of our peoples than war and the threat of war?”


Video of the alien segment in his speech: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag44dRO8LEA

[[ptx]]

Fallacy in my argument? Where?

I am not dismissing independent thinking, i am encouraging critical thinking.
What is wrong with the current Western Civilization as a whole? The power of the corporations and shallow populism. What feeds it? The average voter. And, unlike what you would believe, the average voter is oh-so-"aware" of:
a) Banker conspiracy
b) New world order conspiracy
c) Evil government conspiracy
d) Some other government conspiracy
e) Their government acting as puppets for something else
f) Whatever-the-fuck-else you can come up with

Cheap populists make use of this to conjure up some sort of imaginary enemy and promise that they are the ones going to fight it. The masses vote for them, rather than the ones, who can actually offer real solutions.
"Aware" people spreading such "information" merely contribute to the problem.

[Tagora]

Fallacy in my argument? Where?

I am not dismissing independent thinking, i am encouraging critical thinking.
What is wrong with the current Western Civilization as a whole? The power of the corporations and shallow populism. What feeds it? The average voter. And, unlike what you would believe, the average voter is oh-so-"aware" of:
a) Banker conspiracy
b) New world order conspiracy
c) Evil government conspiracy
d) Some other government conspiracy
e) Their government acting as puppets for something else
f) Whatever-the-fuck-else you can come up with

Cheap populists make use of this to conjure up some sort of imaginary enemy and promise that they are the ones going to fight it. The masses vote for them, rather than the ones, who can actually offer real solutions.
"Aware" people spreading such "information" merely contribute to the problem.

Please look at my posts in this topic before replying.  To my knowledge I have yet to post one conspiracy theory, and thus far, one of two posters that have supported their statements with links providing supporting evidence of American aggression in domestic and international context.  I think this is a good place to end my role in this discussion as I'm not going to blur my own points, or as lawyers say, "I rest my case."

[[ptx]]

Read Murmillus posts then. In either case, it is not about conspiracy theories, it is about the way of thinking, one that sees almost solely the bad, exaggerates it and conjures up some more.
Dressing it up in more words and with references doesn't change the essence of it - a whine. Try constructive feedback instead.

[Oberyn]

Decadence, fading away from an imperialist, blood-hungry dominant society.  You don't even realize that's what your advocating and you tell me to look up history.  Why don't you go talk to a historian about how great the British empire was, or Rome.  We're the same except that we've prohibited slaves, contracting that out to multinationals who operate in third world countries ruined by western administration.

You believe civilization is cyclical, going through clearly delineated stages, but the examples you bring up couldn't be any more dissimilar. How exactly does the breakdown of European colonial empires following the 2 WW's compare to the fall of the Roman empire? I'd love to see the parrallels. Or between either of those and the US one. Of course that's completely ignoring civilizations like China, the Bantu expansion in sub-saharan Africa, Japan, Russia, the Ottomans, the Caliphate and all it's various offspring, etc going all the way back to the fucking Sumerians, that don't fit your eurocentric pattern.

If you can straight-faced compare the looting, raping, pillaging and enslaving done under the Roman empire or the concentration camps of the British to sweatshops in third world countries you're beyond rational arguements. Maybe you should see what they both look like, first hand. There's quite a clear difference. That mode of "domination" still exists in quite a few places...but I'm sure that's also the fault of "white" hegemony, somehow. Because obviously everything would be a peachy utopia of pure harmony otherwise.

[[ptx]]

Besides, Rome didn't fall all at once, Eastern Rome survived long enough for most, if not all, of it's developments to be spread and thus maintained in other states/empires/kingdoms. Even more of a moot point. If you had used Southern American civilizations as an example, that could've worked, they are the isolated example of a lost civilization.

[LordBerenger]

Peter X and Bloberyn are my newest idols now.

[Murmillus_Prime]

Read Murmillus posts then. In either case, it is not about conspiracy theories, it is about the way of thinking, one that sees almost solely the bad, exaggerates it and conjures up some more.
Dressing it up in more words and with references doesn't change the essence of it - a whine. Try constructive feedback instead.

Ignore the bad, and we'll trip over ourselves, mid-stride full of happy thoughts, then smack, face smashed nose first into concrete curb, hysteria and chaos ensues, because those at the top aren't competent, they're far removed from reality, and to put too much faith in them, is to encourage their failings and the lack of worth the lives of we the people, because we can be bought and sold like cheap whores to live our little lives while they live their big lives, resting upon those peasants and their little insignificant dehumanised lives, or as some would like to think, we're all nought but cockroaches.

[Tagora]

Yes, it is that bad.

http://bigthink.com/ideas/24524

Don't write baseless assumptions.  Usually you have to establish "A" with "B" in arguments, neither of you have been able to do that.

27 million slaves exist today, and most of them are kept in conditions that are worse then concentration camps.  Read the transcript.  All of this is documented.  Obviously the number is an estimation because slavery is internationally illegal.  Still not convinced?  Search "Slavery in [your county/state/country here]". 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contemporary_slavery

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


And you also called me ignorant of previous western living conditions.  I've seen people living in dumps and landfills in person.  Honestly, why are you even posting without any supporting evidence other then your baseless assumptions?  I implore you to read about these issues before posting again.  Save me the effort, please.

Evidence:
http://www.demotix.com/news/35347/people-living-garbage-dump-cambodia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXqX-MAWIwU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxqbwebKpX4

Oh, you actually want physical violence because structural/institutional violence isn't good enough for your attention span?  Something that looks like the Middle Ages, or industrial revolution-era America?

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Photos: Rwanda massacres where hundreds of thousands were murdered while the west sat by, knowing this was going to happen before anyone was murdered. 

[Overdriven]

That's a typical white and/or privileged world view, and I'm paraphrasing "things have never been better" because while you're the guy wearing your comfy Nike's, you're not the guy who has worked for the past 5-10 years in a sweatshop making them. 

Except in Britain you had Victorian era workhouses which had far worse conditions than the modern sweatshop. It's not like western civilisation didn't go through that already.

Also arguably they are a good thing. If you knew anything about development then you would know that. No one outside of popularist writers thinks sweatshops are a negative thing.

(click to show/hide)

Yes, it is that bad.

http://bigthink.com/ideas/24524

Don't write baseless assumptions.  Usually you have to establish "A" with "B" in arguments, neither of you have been able to do that.

27 million slaves exist today, and most of them are kept in conditions that are worse then concentration camps.  Read the transcript.  All of this is documented.  Obviously the number is an estimation because slavery is internationally illegal.  Still not convinced?  Search "Slavery in [your county/state/country here]". 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contemporary_slavery

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


And you also called me ignorant of previous western living conditions.  I've seen people living in dumps and landfills in person.  Honestly, why are you even posting without any supporting evidence other then your baseless assumptions?  I implore you to read about these issues before posting again.  Save me the effort, please.

Evidence:
http://www.demotix.com/news/35347/people-living-garbage-dump-cambodia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXqX-MAWIwU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxqbwebKpX4

Oh, you actually want physical violence because structural/institutional violence isn't good enough for your attention span?  Something that looks like the Middle Ages, or industrial revolution-era America?

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 

What was your point with all this?

I'd say that only 27million slaves is a fucking ace achievement in the modern world with a population boom. Pulling from the same source you used 'Slaves and serfs made up around three-quarters of the world's population at the beginning of the 19th century.'. Reducing that to such a tiny fraction as 27million is fantastic. That's not to say that we shouldn't try and still help those 27 million, but in real terms things have never been better.

As to the argument of poverty. There has always been poverty and always will be. I hate these development goals from ridiculous charities that go something along the lines of 'to eradicate poverty by the year BLAH BLAH BLAH'. It's never going to happen, particularly with a booming population. Again that's not to say we shouldn't try and better the lives of many people, but we have to be realistic. Economic and population growth at is current level is never going to last. Even if the world evened out it's growth world wide to a middle average, the resources on the planet simply couldn't sustain that level of development for everyone (London alone requires an area twice the size of the UK to support all its needs, food, energy ect). That means there has to be a breaking point, where the world goes to shit, or people have to continue to suffer whilst others thrive. Short of a miraculous technological advance (not to be dismissed), there isn't a lot we can do about it. You can hardly ask countries to 'undevelop' and with the majority of African nations slipping further into poverty and development of many nations slowing down (ok ok India, Asian Tigers, China whatever are exceptions)  poverty is set to remain always.

What does that mean for America? Well they are in a pretty good place to ride all this out till the end of time. How do you judge the greatest country in the world? I don't think you can. But they certainly aren't any more powerful than a number of nations in the world but they are still up there at the top and that's a good place to be.

[Tagora]

Except in Britain you had Victorian era workhouses which had far worse conditions than the modern sweatshop. It's not like western civilisation didn't go through that already.

Also arguably they are a good thing. If you knew anything about development then you would know that. No one outside of popularist writers thinks sweatshops are a negative thing.

Wrong.

http://www.independent.org/publications/working_papers/article.asp?id=1369

Read the paper.

What was your point with all this?

Read the posts above.  He said that violence today and living conditions are nothing compared to previous ones.