Shields don't affect swing speed.

[rustyspoon]

People saying that shield speed matters is something that has bothered me for a long time. Whenever someone said that it did, I would go to the duel server and try out different shields. I never saw a noticeable difference between any of them.

This morning I thought I'd put it to a real test and brought out a stopwatch.

I was using a character with 6 shield skill and 161 1 handed WPF.

He was armed with a short sword - 102 speed.

A heavy round shield - 84 speed.

A knightly heater - 100 speed.

Also, I did one set while wearing no armor and one set wearing 20 pounds of armor.

I did 3, 30 second trials for each set.

For each test, the shield I was not using was on the ground.

For the swing test, I was holding the mouse steady and clicking left mouse as fast as I possibly could.

For the feint test - which can not really be tested accurately, I think - I was clicking left, right, left as fast as I possibly could.

My first sets were wearing no armor.

For each test, I averaged the exact same number of swings. 30 swings in 30 seconds. Shield speed made no difference whatsoever. Having a shield made no difference between not having a shield. That was the point that surprised me the most.

I would like to give this test the whole Walt treatment, but I'm going out of town for a week so it will take me some time to get to it. My main is only 2 mil short of retirement and when I retire him I'm going to re-roll him as a shielder so I can test at different WPF and shield levels. I feel if there is a noticeable difference to be seen it will be with someone with a lower shield skill.

However, these results to provide some surprising information. It does show to me how I was able to out spam people with my 101 speed masterworked Italian sword even while carrying a heavy round shield. It also shows that any noticeable speed difference was actually mental and not mechanical.

I pray though, that you shielders out there don't use this information for evil. For the love of god don't go out and be a side-sword swinging, huscarl carrying tool. Really I think it should be used for something I have been a proponent of for a long time: MAKE SHIELD SPEED ACTUALLY MEAN SOMETHING!

I'm all for heavy, unbreakable shields slowing down our attacks. But, give us some fast light shields that can break in a couple axe hits just to balance things out. I think if these changes were put in place, there would be a lot less complaints from non-shielders.

Anyway, I encourage any one else to grab a stopwatch and try this out for themselves. You'll be pleasantly surprised. One word of advice though, try the feinting test multiple times before you start recording times. I noticed I got faster as I went along so had to scrap that data and start all over again. As you do it a bunch of times your fingers just get better at it. XD.

**ADDENDUM** I have a feeling that if shield speed DOES make a difference, it would only be in blocking speed. However, that wouldn't come into play when swinging a weapon as swinging completely overrides block. So, this is something I'll have to somehow test in the future.

Also, I think that any feeling that someone has about shields slowing you down has more to do with the nature of blocking and the effect on the player itself. When you're blocking without a shield, you know instantly whether your weapon is in position or not. It has 4 very distinct positions that denote it is in "parrying mode".

However, with a shield -which only blocks when it has fully come up- you don't know that it is in block position until it stops moving. Therefore, the players themselves have to slow down slightly in their swings just to ensure that their shield is in position for the block; since there is no visual cue that the shield is in block position other than the fact that it is not moving.

**ANOTHER ADDENDUM** So I did a quick test on blocking speed. Using both a 79 speed shield and a 100 speed shield, the blocking speed was the same. Didn't matter if I was using a shielder with 6 shield skill or 1 shield skill. One interesting thing to notice was that your shield seems to come up faster if you are blocking when your weapon is drawn back then if you are at rest. I think I'm going to install fraps on this machine so I can edit together some side-by-side videos to do comparisons.

Shield blocking speedI'm pretty sure I figured out why smaller shields SEEM faster though. In order for shields to be considered "blocking" they have to be in a certain physical position. I am assuming that this is measured by the top of the shield so as not to stick above the characters head on larger shields. To be in the blocking position, the top of the shield needs to be in that exact coordinate. A small shield - like a buckler - need to travel a MUCH larger distance than a huscarl. Therefore, in order to reach the blocking position in the set amount of time the animation speed is increased. However, since no blocking is actually done until it is in the blocking position, it gets no benefit from it's technically higher speed. So it's essentially moving faster, but not blocking any faster.

Think of it this way; two objects need to reach a point 100 feet away in 1 second. Object A is 10 feet across, object B is 50 feet across. Let's say their left edge is on the starting point. Object A will need to travel 90 more feet in that second whereas object B only need to travel 50. Same principle with shields.

[Grey]

"non shielders".....you mean players right? Shields are incredibly over powered, they still have huge forcefields, dont slow weapon swing speed, and usually will also stop arrows from the sides.....they actually PULL projectiles OFF their flight, like a magnet, and a lot of the time throwing weapons hit THIN AIR and get stuck, not even touching the shield. Shields need removing 'till chdaz gets rid of whoever it is in the dev team boosting them up after each patch.

I mean, really, Ive seen arrows to 90% turns cause of the shield magnets, its stupid.

[Keshian]

Wow, 100+ speed weapons almost the length of the average 2H sword that are not slowed down at all by using a shield or slightly shorter but do the damage of a bec de corbin.  OP - needs nerfing.
But anyway the shield speed might only indicate how fast you can bring your shield from a resting position so a slower shield speed reduces your blocking speed, not that there is that much of a difference from what ive seen trying out different shields, but if there is a slight difference between shields it would probably be there.   I thoroughly agree heavier/slower shields should make you swing slower, if not then the speed of weapons like military adn steel pick and warhammer that 2-shot almost everyone no matter your build should be slowed down to around 90 instead of 100/99/97 and side sword should be down to 98/99 rather than 101.  My 2 cents.

[Keshian]

"non shielders".....you mean players right? Shields are incredibly over powered, they still have huge forcefields, dont slow weapon swing speed, and usually will also stop arrows from the sides.....they actually PULL projectiles OFF their flight, like a magnet, and a lot of the time throwing weapons hit THIN AIR and get stuck, not even touching the shield. Shields need removing 'till chdaz gets rid of whoever it is in the dev team boosting them up after each patch.

I mean, really, Ive seen arrows to 90% turns cause of the shield magnets, its stupid.

Actually the worst is when they drop their shield (usually a huscarl) and instead of hitting them with the arrow it still magnetically hits the huscarl.  Huscarls are still way to big a radius of protection compared to all other shields except the heavy board shield.

[rustyspoon]

"non shielders".....you mean players right? Shields are incredibly over powered, they still have huge forcefields, dont slow weapon swing speed, and usually will also stop arrows from the sides.....they actually PULL projectiles OFF their flight, like a magnet, and a lot of the time throwing weapons hit THIN AIR and get stuck, not even touching the shield. Shields need removing 'till chdaz gets rid of whoever it is in the dev team boosting them up after each patch.

I mean, really, Ive seen arrows to 90% turns cause of the shield magnets, its stupid.

I kinda disagree with you there to a point. I see this happen ALL THE TIME with a shield like the huscarl. However, using a knightly heater or a buckler I get hit from the sides a lot. Maybe the percent of force field increase is based off the initial size of the shield?

[Ramsay]

Block>swing>block>swing> etc. The speed difference should be visible. Shield speed is the speed of blocking and lowering the block (?)

[rustyspoon]

Wow, 100+ speed weapons almost the length of the average 2H sword that are not slowed down at all by using a shield or slightly shorter but do the damage of a bec de corbin.  OP - needs nerfing.
But anyway the shield speed might only indicate how fast you can bring your shield from a resting position so a slower shield speed reduces your blocking speed, not that there is that much of a difference from what ive seen trying out different shields, but if there is a slight difference between shields it would probably be there.   I thoroughly agree heavier/slower shields should make you swing slower, if not then the speed of weapons like military adn steel pick and warhammer that 2-shot almost everyone no matter your build should be slowed down to around 90 instead of 100/99/97 and side sword should be down to 98/99 rather than 101.  My 2 cents.

That's why I want to redo this test over starting from a level 1 character. The guy I did this test with is too high a level to see any real difference if there is one. But yeah, this is a problem that really needs fixing. As it stands, agi builds with masterworked steel picks and huscarls are crazy overpowered.

[Grey]

A shields SPEED rating has always been to show how quickly you can pull the shields from "rest" to block position. I would like some kind of normalcy: "rest" shield blocks ranged, but not melee.......HOW?? Someone explain the logic. Shields should be slow, cumbersome, shithead crutches like they were IRL. Bucklers were the only shields used in the style the game shows, in melee swinging and blocking, all other shields would make you fucking piss easy kill, and should in the game too.

As for Knightly heater, it covers feet and face at the same time, reguardless of how well you aim, w/e the range.

Shields either need their size as the extreme limit of the "forcefield" area, and Im sorry to guys who have stacked 10 points into shields, but seriously, l2p.

Solutions would be: No consecutive blocks= If i hit the guys shield, and a second later a 2nd guy attacks, the shielder should not have time to bring his shield back up. OR, some kind of stamina system, holding up the shield uses a tiny bit over time, taking a hit or shot should use more stamina the harder the hit is, so no more "I can hold mouse2 and walk through the valley of the shadow of death, and I shall fear no dmg".

As it is now, shields have so many advantages and the ONLY disadvantage is a slight speed reduction when running......MASSIVE NERF NEEDED.

[Spa_geh_tea]

^ but that's what shields were for......blocking arrows and creating impassable mobile devises.

Now I agree, the huscarl is bullshit. Even the board shield(its hp equivalent) allows arrows and melee to hit from the sides. But don't penalize the countless other "inferior" shields because of one asshole.

[rustyspoon]

A shields SPEED rating has always been to show how quickly you can pull the shields from "rest" to block position. I would like some kind of normalcy: "rest" shield blocks ranged, but not melee.......HOW?? Someone explain the logic. Shields should be slow, cumbersome, shithead crutches like they were IRL. Bucklers were the only shields used in the style the game shows, in melee swinging and blocking, all other shields would make you fucking piss easy kill, and should in the game too.

As for Knightly heater, it covers feet and face at the same time, reguardless of how well you aim, w/e the range.

Shields either need their size as the extreme limit of the "forcefield" area, and Im sorry to guys who have stacked 10 points into shields, but seriously, l2p.

Solutions would be: No consecutive blocks= If i hit the guys shield, and a second later a 2nd guy attacks, the shielder should not have time to bring his shield back up. OR, some kind of stamina system, holding up the shield uses a tiny bit over time, taking a hit or shot should use more stamina the harder the hit is, so no more "I can hold mouse2 and walk through the valley of the shadow of death, and I shall fear no dmg".

As it is now, shields have so many advantages and the ONLY disadvantage is a slight speed reduction when running......MASSIVE NERF NEEDED.

Shields do need adjustments, but those changes would just make them pointless. There does need to be a tradeoff between durability and swing speed. If you don't want your shield to hamper you, get a light one that breaks easy. Need to push through on siege, get a big, slow-ass shield. As it stands, I think that shield coverage is fine for most shields. It's the larger shields where the forcefield grows to ridiculous size. Hell, even my heavy round has grabbed arrows that were shot from my rear left flank.

One problem I fear though is that a lot of this is hard-coded and the devs can't do anything about it anyway. I would just like to see some changes to shields where it becomes a legitimate from of fighting and not easy-mode as it currently is.

[Kalam]

Have you checked the feint and pull-back speed? I'm not sure how you'd go about testing it, but there seems to be a big difference in feel to me between, say, the board shield and the elite cavalry shield.

I think people hate the huscarl because magic ghost through happens less with all the round shields. It's a problem with two sides, really.

That said, I don't see why the arrows shouldn't go through holes. It'd just be nice if they could allow that without turning it as vulnerable to angles as the other shields are. Or at least buff the other shields to protect against it somehow.

[rustyspoon]

Have you checked the feint and pull-back speed? I'm not sure how you'd go about testing it, but there seems to be a big difference in feel to me between, say, the board shield and the elite cavalry shield.

I think people hate the huscarl because magic ghost through happens less with all the round shields. It's a problem with two sides, really.

That said, I don't see why the arrows shouldn't go through holes. It'd just be nice if they could allow that without turning it as vulnerable to angles as the other shields are. Or at least buff the other shields to protect against it somehow.

For feinting the only thing I could think of was to left click, right click and then left click again as fast as I could. I couldn't really think of a better way for a human to do it. The only way we could really do it accurately would be to have access to the code or to have a robot do it.

I'm thinking too that the whole arrow blocking thing has more to do with round shields than anything. For example, the heavy board has a width of 28 and the huscarl has a width of 43. Let's say that a high shield skill gives a forcefield with a 20% increase in size. The heavy board would become an effective width of 34 with rounding, where the huscarl would become 52 with rounding. That width is not that far off from the heavy board's height of 60!

[Grey]

Kalam, shields SHOULD NOT protect from angled attacks. Also, its not hard coded, for 2 days after last patch the forcefields were almost gone, then they got rebuffed. I forget who it is, but one of the "balance testers" only uses shields and raged SO much he got the forcefields put back on.

Shields should be shields: You can build a wall with your mates, and stop arrows, trying to use one in melee should instantly get you killed. Hollywood has A LOT to answer for, as it has made people believe shields were used in mixed melee combat:

THEY NEVER WHERE! Shields were formation weapons, BUCKLERS wre used in combat but NEVER shields.

This said, I would like shields to be buffed in some respects: Boardshield on your back, turn around to reload your crossbow, safe from behind.....shield at "rest" should still block melee..... and more stuff I cba to mention now as Im overdue at the dinnertable.

[LordRichrich]

If shielders are OP why do they rarley top the leader boards?
The rason you get pissed off is because most of the remaining shielders CAN play to their style, much like Murmillius Prime for polearms and Bjord for 2h. Crappy shileders say "forget that" and go off to get a nice spammy polearm or 2h sword
I admit that the huscarl needs to be nerfed which is why I never use it
But nearly all the 2h and polearm weapons can out range a 1h
Even more of the time a shielder simply gets out spammed. I find it a lot easier to break a spammers chain with no-shield than with a shield. Nerfing all shield speeds would just increase this
I play as a shielder and I seriously don't think they are OP (not counting the huscarl shield and sidesword)
And what's wrong with the people who want to put 10 points into shield? It's their play style. If someone tried to stop you doing your 18/18 build because you played well/had fun with it you'd get pissed off!

[LordRichrich]

Shields should be shields: You can build a wall with your mates, and stop arrows, trying to use one in melee should instantly get you killed. Hollywood has A LOT to answer for, as it has made people believe shields were used in mixed melee combat:

THEY NEVER WHERE! Shields were formation weapons, BUCKLERS wre used in combat but NEVER shields.

So?
If you make using a shield in 1 vs 1 combat always a lose for a shield you have to make shields a LOT more durable to make up for this
Have you seen what happens when a shield wall is formed in cRPG? You wait till the enemy gets close and then break off and fight individually
IF you make shields suck in combat you have to allow us to attack while the shield is still blocking, just like IRL
The game doesn't have the right mechanics for most real life situations
SO STOP USING THEM WHEN TRYING TO BALANCE THE BLOODY GAME