Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage

[Thomek]

blablabla

Agreed.

Like I would have any say in this anyway..

[bruce]

Paul is right.

Anyway: if you hit someone at the very start of the swing (eg, you had 5cm space to start a swing), you will hit with much much less force. This has little to do with distance, you simply have much less time to apply force and accelerate your weapon. This is more important the longer the weapon is, because a longer weapon has a higher moment of inertia; even if the overall force is the same, the velocity is much lower, and no cutting will happen.

Xant and Vibe are wrong because they are not considering the time during which you are imparting force (accelerating) the sword. The sword (or anything you swing, for that matter), regardless of which section of the sword you hit with, will hit with much less force if you have less time to accelerate it. If someone is pressed against you, all you are doing is pushing them with a sword. Regardless of which point of the sword you are doing this with, it's not going to cut anything remotely hard.

Hitting near the center of mass is only better in the case you had equal time to accelerate the sword.

Ideally, for maximum damage, you would want to hit at the time the sword has reached the maximum speed; hitting "early" with any part of the weapon is going to be much less effective.


If you don't live in a city, grab an axe. Try a swing with 5cm space and a normal swing, and see the difference.

[Xant]

Paul is right.

Anyway: if you hit someone at the very start of the swing (eg, you had 5cm space to start a swing), you will hit with much much less force. This has little to do with distance, you simply have much less time to apply force and accelerate your weapon. This is more important the longer the weapon is, because a longer weapon has a higher moment of inertia; even if the overall force is the same, the velocity is much lower, and no cutting will happen.

Xant and Vibe are wrong because they are not considering the time during which you are imparting force (accelerating) the sword. The sword (or anything you swing, for that matter), regardless of which section of the sword you hit with, will hit with much less force if you have less time to accelerate it. If someone is pressed against you, all you are doing is pushing them with a sword. Regardless of which point of the sword you are doing this with, it's not going to cut anything remotely hard.

Hitting near the center of mass is only better in the case you had equal time to accelerate the sword.

Ideally, for maximum damage, you would want to hit at the time the sword has reached the maximum speed; hitting "early" with any part of the weapon is going to be much less effective.


If you don't live in a city, grab an axe. Try a swing with 5cm space and a normal swing, and see the difference.

what

No one... was suggesting that swinging from 5 cm is better than a normal swing.

Also what Paul said just supports what me and Vibe were saying.

[Grumbs]

What if both 2h and Polearms get this:

- for polearms the hilt part does less damage, but blunt
- for 2h the hilt part (and some of the blade close to the hilt) does less damage, but remains cut

This would be a slight buff to polearms compared to 2h.

But it makes no sense for 2h sword to do less damage close to the hilt, if it's the blade?!?!?

USE YOUR BRAIN VIBE PLS

Pretty sure Paul made the point that its complicated and depends on certain factors, including armour of the target. The tip has the highest possible damage, but you must be able to withstand the counter force and not have the weapon pivot back. Against high armour you might prefer to hit towards centre of mass

[bruce]

The sooner a sword connects to the target, up to a certain point, the less time you had to impart force to your sword and accelerate it. That (and hitting with the hilt itself, which is bad regardless since you hit sooner* and it is behind center of mass) is the why hiltslashing in its crpgesque form is silly. Ideally you'd want to have someone in front of you; that way you can apply force properly when you swing at him.

*assuming your sword has a crossguard

[Xant]

Pretty sure Paul made the point that its complicated and depends on certain factors, including armour of the target. The tip has the highest possible damage, but you must be able to withstand the counter force and not have the weapon pivot back. Against high armour you might prefer to hit towards centre of mass

Notice how my quoted post says "less damage" not "it should do more damage closer to the hilt". Yes, the tip is good against light armor. If you have a proper swing to back it up. Which is not what was being discussed, either.

[Lemmy_Winks]

Hitting with the tip of the sword does the most potential damage because it is the fastest moving part. But only if your grip can withstand the counterforce. That's the difference between the sword, where the center of mass is close to the hilt and a great long axe with its close to the head center of mass. Hitting a hard target with the axe (head) gives a better chance to maintain the grip than hitting with the sword tip.

On impact the natural fulcrum is much closer to the target for the axe and the axeman has a long lever to withstand the reactio. The swordman only has a short lever to withstand the force and hitting a metal target with the tip will most likely just bounce.

On the other hand if the sword user decides to land the blow closer to the center mass of his sword then he will have less problems with the counterforce because the lever length between center mass and impact point got shorter. But the speed and thus power* of the blow would be a bit weaker. So against a lightly armored target I'd use the tip and against metal armor going closer to the hilt might be better.

A hilt hit for the axeman might be problematic because if the center of mass is actually behind the target and the victim acts as the fulcrum then short handle section between grip and target is the lever length the axeman has to stop axehead from moving. If its short and the head fast&heavy, then the attacker could even lose hold of his weapon. That's why I'd give head heavy weapons only a small blunt damage (compared to normal damage) for hilt hits, probably different to balanced weapons like spears or staves.


Edit:
*
With power of the blow I mean the ability of the weapon to destroy tissue and not neccesarily the kinetic energy. Let's imagine a sword that is held by a fixed grip that can withstand unlimited force and then swings it against a target. Two cases, first hits with the tip and second with middle of the blade. The swords come to a full stop and becasue of the ideal grip all of the kinetic energy of the swung sword is transfered into the target. This energy is the same for both cases BUT the faster moving tip can do more actual damage while the slower middle will spend a bigger part of the energy on accelerating(pushing) the target instead on tissue damage.
Crappy comparision: getting hit by a 5 km/h truck or a 50km/h car. Last hurts more while the first just pushes you away.

Hes saying if your using a long axe or something of that nature, and you hit the target while the target is close enough to u so that you end up hitting with the wooden shaft and not the head of the axe, yes you will do blunt damage but it will be much less than the normal cut damage the axe would typically do. So this is in effect, a nerf to any weapon that has a long shaft, mostly pole arms. Its a nerf but it makes things more realistic, it in part solves the problem of doing full damage to someone whose 5 inches infront of ur face with a 8 foot weapon that has the axe head or whatever on the end of that weapon. The video posted is somewhat misleading, should have one shot of killing with axe head and one shot being kiled by the shaft so they can see how much less damage it does.

For the differences in the tip / middle of the sword hits, has the potentially to greatly buff heavy armor or make swords somewhat obsolete. I can see people backpedaling in heavy armor so they are only getting hit by the tip and so the weapon just bounces off or does little damage.

[Tindel]

Too many nerds in this thread who has no actual experience in using tools.
Cutting wood, sledgehammer/hammer work. This will teach you all you need to know about applying force
A real man doesnt need to discuss how to apply force with a tool in his hand,   he knows.......

[Xant]

Too many nerds in this thread who has no actual experience in using tools.
Cutting wood, sledgehammer/hammer work. This will teach you all you need to know about applying force
A real man doesnt need to discuss how to apply force with a tool in his hand,   he knows.......

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[Kafein]

Gotta love the heart smileys

[Joker86]

Well, I have no clue of physics, I dropped physics in school with a 5 (in a system from 1 to 6 where 1 is best, and 4 the minimum requirement to pass something), but if I would try to hack through the mailed shoulder of someone, I would use an overhead swing to hit it with the last third of the blade (where the tip is), I would NOT try to hit him with the hilt third.

Besides of this, without any further information (or knowledge about physics) I would say that Xant's/Vibe's graphics a few pages ago are wrong, because the fulcrum is not at the hilt. You swing a sword, it's not jerking off, you don't do it with your wrist! Actually swinging a sword should have several fulcrums, but the most important one should be the elbow or the shoulder. Which already renders the graphics useless.

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Could be that I am entirely wrong and should shut the fuck up about matters of physics, but from what I know from reality, and from the simply thought why weapon length was always such an important factor, although you claim that the end does much less damage than the hilt, and the fact that some two handed sword were completely dull at the hilt to give the wielder a better grip (which would mean they make the "best" part of the sword dull to be able to use an inferior part better), I say most kinetic energy is tranferred close to the tip.

Edit: I think the confusion is about certain definitions. I think the worst hits are dealt with the last third of the weapon, but most "pressure" can be given by the hilt third. That's why you try to block hits with this part of the weapon, instead of the tip, because the leverage would work against you. But swinging is a completely different matter, there the leverage works on your side.

I think the "bouncing off" discussion is another important part. If the blade bounces off, it means it delivered all energy directed into the hit direction. But close to the hilt it will not bounce off, but keep pressing against the target, which means it did not deliver its entire energy. Compared to the fact that during a swing there will be more energy in the tip due to leverage, a hit with the tip should do the trick.

[bruce]

The picture is wrong insofar as the sword is treated as a wheelbarrow (a real world example of a type 2 lever depicted in the second picture).

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[Zisa]

Wonder if those medieval dudes had a weapon equivalent of a 1 inch punch.

[Tzar]

Just to be perfectly clear you are thinking about buffing backpedal/S key Heroes amarite cmp :

Or are you also going/have to implement some sort of penalty for the folks who Back pedal  :

Or is it just the face hug crowd who gets the middle finger 

Sry havent been lurking the forums in my Diablo 3 coma 

[Moncho]

Not if we give melee weapons the same backpedaling penalty as ranged (reduced backward speed while readying and releasing).

From page 9 of this topic:  http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,34371.120.html