Author Topic: nerf archers  (Read 13945 times)

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Offline Bobthehero

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Re: nerf archers
« Reply #210 on: June 20, 2012, 12:10:46 pm »
0
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Offline Ronin

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Re: nerf archers
« Reply #211 on: June 20, 2012, 01:12:05 pm »
+2
As long as the ranged exist, no matter how hard or less useful it is, there will be always people who can use them efficiently. What "nerf ranged" supporters want is, they want to be invulnerable to the ranged projectiles.

This is supposed to be a team game, not every build is supposed to be useful in all situations. If someone decides to go high STR build with 2-3 athletics, they have to find a shielder or any kind of coverage to come into melee; where they will truly shine, where they will put their adventage to good use. A shielder is not supposed to deal with 2 archers at once, shielders are not an offensive counter to the ranged. Shielders are defensive units, while the xbowmen, throwers and cavalry can be an offensive counter to archers. Of course this doesn't mean shielders can not be an effective offensive counter to the ranged. But since shielders are another class of infantry units, 20 shielders vs 20 ranged would lose. Because infantry are weak against ranged normally, this is something we can learn from the Age of Games. On the other hand 10 shielders, 5 cav and 5 archers would have a better chance against 20 archers. That is why there can never be a good balance in public games, where classes are randomly distributed. Or worse, distributed based on clan banners (Yes I'm talking about GK mainly).

The reason cRPG has less balance than other mods is, there are simply more classes which are less flexible (such as pure 2handers). People here say archery in native is ridiculous, but there is no unbalance in native because every infantry can use shields, spears, throwing weapons and two handed street sweepers whenever they want; even at the same time if they wish. So it actually balances things out. Such a thing we can never hope to have in cRPG because of classess and dedicated builds.

This balance issue especially be a problem in public games because, as I said, classes are not equally distributed among teams. Even worse, even simple strategy or coordination is something hard to find since it is a public server. If a cavalry have 27-1 score, it is because the other team let him to achieve that score. Same goes for all classes, such as archery and 2handed STR crutchers.

That's why there should be more events like clanmatches and such, to see how two organized teams do. That's what makes nations cup so valuable in my opinion, but I'd say more events should take place.

My suggestion is: Do what needs to be done about balancing, but please do not do it very based on public games. Host events instead to see how the balance is truly are. Games such as LOL, Starcraft are not being balanced by public games, but ranked games instead; if I am not horribly mistaken.
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Offline Kafein

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Re: nerf archers
« Reply #212 on: June 20, 2012, 03:26:40 pm »
+2
I just think certain "classes" or playstyles should have advantages.

Yet a shielder should have no advantages against an archer ?

I can't even hope to kill a cav guy with my one handed weapon unless he runs into a wall or something.

Then you are doing something wrong. Horses live in a marmelade world, whereas humans have no inertia whatsoever. If you use this fact to your advantage, you can survive individual cav attacks with any weapon as long as it pleases you, and even kill them or their horses.

I don't think "balance" is always necessary in every single instance.

It is however necessary in these oddly frequently happening instances at the end of rounds like I described.

Do you know how many swings it takes a one handed user to kill a str/armor crutching 2 handed guy?

With a dedicated onehander build, should be around 5-8 hits depending on str, armor levels, hold times etc.

But also note it takes 4 arrows or less for the exact same guy to go down. And much more importantly, he won't block arrows. The amount of actual swings being exchanged can go well over 50 before a melee combat is over.

And he can one shot me with his 30 str and +3 weapon.

Well, the thing is, how many of his snailspeed swings will you block before that last one ? 5 ? 10 ? Until someone comes to rescue you ? No matter how much damage he does, you have to fail a block for him to acheive anything. Which is not the case with projectiles.

If he is indulging in maul douchebaggery I can't even hope to block him.

Good point. However, a guy using a maul also has no hope of ever catching you.

They seem the most vocal about nerfing everything but themselves. I think they are overpowered, but I'm not gonna scream for nerfs.

If you don't scream for nerfs, it's probable your own situation is fine and you are just trying to maintain a statu quo that works for you.

It always seemed strange to me that the imbalance in complaints (read : 2h whine the most) seems to be an excuse for the targeted audience (ranged usually) to dismiss these complaints, saying "2h are whiners". How is that a valid argument ?

It's a bit like me advocating against environmentalists by saying they are hippies.


When one part of the population is actively lobbying for some things to change as if their life depended on it, and an other part of the population wants things to change in the reverse direction, yet without being nearly as vocal about it, the only logical conclusion is everything is fine, of course :wink:

Offline Adamar

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Re: nerf archers
« Reply #213 on: June 20, 2012, 03:50:37 pm »
-1
There are way more 2 handers than anything, and getting shot is annoying. Thats why they whine.

Offline Kafein

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Re: nerf archers
« Reply #214 on: June 20, 2012, 04:05:37 pm »
+2
There are way more 2 handers than anything

True, if you count polearms in, which is valid.

and getting shot is annoying.

Yes it is.

Thats why they whine.

No. There are plenty of annoying things in this game, and they all get a little hate partly because they are annoying, but nowhere as much as archery.

How comes people like me (cav and shielder) that are literally the best possible melee counter to archery also whine about it ? I should be eating archers for breakfast and actually wanting to buff them since more archers would mean an easier game for me. Guess what, it's not the case at all.



Actually if we limit ourselves to stat changes I think archers should hit stronger against low armor and have better long range damage output, but not be unkillable mosquitos like they are now. Make archers the real, flexible soldiers they were in the middle ages, softening the enemy with arrows then taking their sidearms to finish the job. Make medium armor archer hybrids viable and nerf kiting-archery-peasants to the ground. That's all I want. Realism, fun and balance, this time actually all agreeing with each other.

Offline bruce

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Re: nerf archers
« Reply #215 on: June 20, 2012, 04:13:26 pm »
+3
Actually if we limit ourselves to stat changes I think archers should hit stronger against low armor and have better long range damage output, but not be unkillable mosquitos like they are now. Make archers the real, flexible soldiers they were in the middle ages, softening the enemy with arrows then taking their sidearms to finish the job. Make medium armor archer hybrids viable and nerf kiting-archery-peasants to the ground. That's all I want. Realism, fun and balance, this time actually all agreeing with each other.

+1
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Offline Adamar

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Re: nerf archers
« Reply #216 on: June 20, 2012, 07:09:58 pm »
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Kafein, I'll bet that people would still whine about archery then, more than anything else.

Offline Arrowblood

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Re: nerf archers
« Reply #217 on: June 20, 2012, 07:13:02 pm »
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Kafein, I'll bet that people would still whine about archery then, more than anything else.
Indeed

Offline bruce

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Re: nerf archers
« Reply #218 on: June 20, 2012, 09:03:36 pm »
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There's the class of people who whine about archery and all ranged because they think melee should be the exclusive way to get kills. Who cares about those people.

However, it doesn't mean changes should not be made more towards balance / commonsense - what Kafein is suggesting isn't a nerf, it's a change in the class which would make it perhaps slightly even more powerful (if the archer is a good melee fighter, too) but less annoying, and would have more counters.

We had this sort of discussion very long ago regarding balance to archers when they were both better in ranged then now and better in melee then now; the balancers at the time thought it was a better idea to nerf their melee abilities a lot, while nerfing archery only somewhat. So archers became peasant-gear kiters, bar a few exceptions.

The damage that archers do is not really a problem, they do quite a bit of damage but that is okay (and I think they should take less arrows to shoot down a horse then now, and more damage vs low armour / unarmoured people), but it is both more balanced and realistic to allow them to use melee weapons like normal people and a bit of armour, but stop the endless kiting and shooting.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 09:10:14 pm by bruce »
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Offline Kafein

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Re: nerf archers
« Reply #219 on: June 20, 2012, 11:08:16 pm »
+2
The slot system already makes sure archers don't use derp weapons like flamberges. But the way the archery wpf influences accuracy forces them to use nearly no armor and have very little means of defending themselves with a melee weapon. This both forces them to kite, and enables them to be excellent at kiting. I just want that to change so we finally have medium armor archers with just underaverage melee capabilities.

This is also why I consider crossbowmen to be OK balance wise on open maps. They are very accurate and hit very hard, but they won't kite and on open maps they can't camp in hardly reachable places. Xbowmen don't kite both because their reload time doesn't really allow for it, and because they aren't forced to, xbows allow for very good melee builds actually.

For me it's very hard to say whether current archery is in general OP or not, because everything depends on the situation, and also a lot on the archer's player skill, build and heirlooms.

Offline Adam_Bomb

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Re: nerf archers
« Reply #220 on: June 21, 2012, 01:18:34 am »
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Meh, I kite all the time
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Offline Adamar

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Re: nerf archers
« Reply #221 on: June 21, 2012, 02:20:32 am »
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Meh, I kite all the time

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