Author Topic: C-rpg world changes for archer  (Read 5007 times)

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Offline Templar_Steevee

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C-rpg world changes for archer
« on: May 23, 2012, 02:19:13 pm »
0
I'm almost shure that many ppl tell me that I'm whining, but I don't care about it.

I noticed small changes on maps witch helps to paly with cav and melee and force range units to change their play style.
I mean minor changes like removing some ladders or stairs, even some big rocks. Those things helps a lot range units to take cover from some melee and especially from cav. Removing them force range to change their tactics and even changing bulids to hi athlethic (most of melee rage about running archers).

I only hope that devs won't remove trees, because they are helpfull to avoid cav...

Archer forever :D

Offline Kafein

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Re: C-rpg world changes for archer
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2012, 02:26:30 pm »
+4
More (completely) unreachable houses, less rocks, less trees, less fences please.

Ha yes less skirmish maps, more battlefields. This is not modern warfare.

Offline Templar_Steevee

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Re: C-rpg world changes for archer
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2012, 02:43:54 pm »
+6
IMO most players think that on battelfield shouldn't be ANY range unit. Range units make this mod more interesting and force melee and cav to think, not only to wild charge straight on enemy.

Kafein it looks like the best map for you is big flat desert with no hills.
Many players like sometimes hide somewhere and backstab someone.
Differentiated maps makes this game more fun and helps players to not get bored too fast and let them to create some nice tactics.
Archer forever :D

Offline Miwiw

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Re: C-rpg world changes for archer
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2012, 02:50:56 pm »
+3
I also think that spawns should have some ways not be rushed by cav to kill people being left behind or afks. Some little walls around it, some obstacle in front so cav never gets free kills. They don't even need them btw. (I don't have anything against cav though, but late-spawners (whatever reason), or guys with slow pcs/connection often just die in the first second)

Big flat maps without any hills aren't good anyway. Not like we would fight in Swadian area only. Nord/Rhodok area both have hills, nearly same with Vaegir, Sarranid have medium dunes and the Khergit Steppe isn't flat either. Hills add more possibilites to the fights and leaving out the archers, the game would end up in boring 2h fights.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 03:03:47 pm by Miwiw99 »
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Offline Kafein

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Re: C-rpg world changes for archer
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2012, 03:15:39 pm »
+1
Everybody says spawnkilling should not be possible and I can't agree more.

But I personally think hills and dunes are much worse than houses. In this game as soon as you have rough terrain your map looks like it's from Mars.

Hills add more possibilites to the fights

No. Hills actually force each side to find the steepest mountain and camp it until one team dies of boredom. That is what happens whenever random "plains" are on the rotation and the randomness decides plains are supposed to have 80% slopes.


Actually on a 100% flat map without houses the units that have the highest advantage are the archers, this advantage growing bigger with hills. Why ? Well if horses can't hide behind houses, they die. Most horses die when you look at them the wrong way so if everybody can look at them all the time they die very fast. Usually as soon as they enter a 100m circle around the enemy team. The second classes are cav and 1h. 1h because they are more or less protected against archers, and cav because they can manage to kill inf that went too far from their archers or other cav (usually when there are two archer nests cav just fight each other because it's more fun anyway). But 2h/polearms are invariably crushed by range, except those that have enough brainpower to stay behind shielders (most of these are pikemen).

Cav are faster ninjas with the duelling skills of single handed mentally challenged footmen. If you add objects that hide what's on the other side, cav becomes better. On the other hand, objects that don't hide but still prevent moving through them such as rocks, trees or fences are the worst enemy of cav.

So yeah, this :

More (completely) unreachable houses, less rocks, less trees, less fences please.

Was totally biased.

But this :

Ha yes less skirmish maps, more battlefields. This is not modern warfare.

Was not.

Offline Templar_Steevee

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Re: C-rpg world changes for archer
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2012, 03:56:34 pm »
+2
Cav are faster ninjas with the duelling skills of single handed mentally challenged footmen. If you add objects that hide what's on the other side, cav becomes better. On the other hand, objects that don't hide but still prevent moving through them such as rocks, trees or fences are the worst enemy of cav.

Every class can find "+" and "-" in terrain. You only have to think and you won't die like a bitch.  :wink:
Archer forever :D

Offline Miwiw

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Re: C-rpg world changes for archer
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2012, 04:03:57 pm »
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Of course those maps with hills shouldnt be randomed (I do not mean high mountains). As you said those random maps are mostly awful and make teams camp. By hills I mean a way for archers to be a bit better protected against horses. Cav either couche lances, hides behind their shields or directly attacks and do bumpkills quite often. With 5 IF, 18 STR and around 35 Body Armor and 30 Leg Armor I as Archer lose around 20% by a bump (courser, destrier) of a cav. Their slashes are usually 1hit. It is quite difficult to survive any cav attack without inf support or a lucky headshot of myself. There either a tree or a little hill does help me a lot.

But as I actually went more a Hybrid Archer who is able to fight in melee (not neccessarily against cav though), I do not complain about that. I just want some obstacles on a map (not just a plain grass map which is completely flat without many trees).
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Offline CrazyCracka420

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Re: C-rpg world changes for archer
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2012, 04:33:54 pm »
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More (completely) unreachable houses, less rocks, less trees, less fences please.

Ha yes less skirmish maps, more battlefields. This is not modern warfare.

Agreed.  I don't like all the "skirmish/siege" type maps on the battle servers.  Open field battles are where the battles took place (unless it was a siege).  "open field" = geographic terrain.  There wasn't typically buildings and large rocks and fences to hide behind.  You relied on terrain and your other units working in conjunction to hold the advantage.

I also don't like all the modern warfare type maps.  Too many people running around thinking they are a one man army, when their actual strength lies in numbers (or at least running with a few people who can compliment your weaknesses and vice versa).

I disagree with your post about hills though.  I think hills are very important...that the units should be using the terrain to their advantage on the maps.  I don't think we need giant mountains (considering how slow you move on upward slopes), but some elevation changes are important if you remove the fences, houses, and other man made structures.  As cavalry, I think it's completely fair that archers and infantry should be able to fight on the top of a hill that I can't do much to help out with.  That's just plain smart.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 04:39:19 pm by CrazyCracka420 »
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Offline Adamar

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Re: C-rpg world changes for archer
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2012, 01:24:39 am »
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Ha yes less skirmish maps, more battlefields. This is not modern warfare.

Battlefields as in open ground?

Offline KaMiKaZe_JoE

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Re: C-rpg world changes for archer
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2012, 02:34:19 am »
-2
Quote
Many players like sometimes hide somewhere and backstab someone

You're bad at this game.
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Offline Templar_Steevee

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Re: C-rpg world changes for archer
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2012, 08:21:43 am »
-1
You're bad at this game.

Maybe you are wright, I suck in melee, I only know how to pew pew.
But I'm not playing for beeing one of the best, I'm playing for fun, and love when ppls rage about me when I kill them.
Anyway I'm playing "the most retarded class - fucking archer" and I like it  8-)
Archer forever :D

Offline Latvian

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Re: C-rpg world changes for archer
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2012, 12:34:20 pm »
+1
I'm almost shure that many ppl tell me that I'm whining, but I don't care about it.

I noticed small changes on maps witch helps to paly with cav and melee and force range units to change their play style.
I mean minor changes like removing some ladders or stairs, even some big rocks. Those things helps a lot range units to take cover from some melee and especially from cav. Removing them force range to change their tactics and even changing bulids to hi athlethic (most of melee rage about running archers).

I only hope that devs won't remove trees, because they are helpfull to avoid cav...
down with the trees
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Re: C-rpg world changes for archer
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2012, 12:42:19 pm »
+2
I hate starting post out like this but fuck it...

My dream map rotation:

Large open flat field map
Large open hilly map
Mixed forest, creek and open field map
field with village in centre map
large village map
Dueling village map (2 small villages face off, short open run between villages and a longer windy cav unfriendly run)
city with huge wide cavalcade friendly roads down the middle map
destroyed castle map

And don't tell me to go make more maps, I am, I'm just lazy and slow like every other fucker.
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Offline Torost

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Re: C-rpg world changes for archer
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2012, 12:59:20 pm »
+3
The old maps are made less xbow/archer-friendly, I have noticed it aswell, all the good spots gone.

The problem is: in general melee are somewhat braindamaged, and will seldom support the fragile but usefull.
ranged needs time to do their job, and are most effective when not needing to constantly look around 360 for danger.

Saving a running archer is a big bonus for you team, so dont run away from a running archer.

And the shittiest move of them all: "you do not need to be faster than the bear, just faster than the other guy".

I see a friendly melee player beeing chased by a tincan, the friendly runs towards me,ofc in a straight line towards me so I can not shoot at his pursuer.So I hold my arrow, waiting to release til friendly has passed me, and we can fight him together.
Friendly kicks me, losing my draw, and stunned, and find myself being cut down before I can even bring up my little hammer.
Thanks alot friend, you really helped ur team by saving urself.

Offline Kafein

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Re: C-rpg world changes for archer
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2012, 01:29:48 pm »
+1
Every class can find "+" and "-" in terrain. You only have to think and you won't die like a bitch.  :wink:

Following that I can say :

You need to find the true power of friendship to win !


And it will be just as useful to the conversation as your post. But now I have to make a real point or else I'll be more moronic than usual which is not my intention.


I'm in favor of this :

Of course those maps with hills shouldnt be randomed (I do not mean high mountains). As you said those random maps are mostly awful and make teams camp. By hills I mean a way for archers to be a bit better protected against horses. Cav either couche lances, hides behind their shields or directly attacks and do bumpkills quite often. With 5 IF, 18 STR and around 35 Body Armor and 30 Leg Armor I as Archer lose around 20% by a bump (courser, destrier) of a cav. Their slashes are usually 1hit. It is quite difficult to survive any cav attack without inf support or a lucky headshot of myself. There either a tree or a little hill does help me a lot.

But as I actually went more a Hybrid Archer who is able to fight in melee (not neccessarily against cav though), I do not complain about that. I just want some obstacles on a map (not just a plain grass map which is completely flat without many trees).

And this :

Agreed.  I don't like all the "skirmish/siege" type maps on the battle servers.  Open field battles are where the battles took place (unless it was a siege).  "open field" = geographic terrain.  There wasn't typically buildings and large rocks and fences to hide behind.  You relied on terrain and your other units working in conjunction to hold the advantage.

I also don't like all the modern warfare type maps.  Too many people running around thinking they are a one man army, when their actual strength lies in numbers (or at least running with a few people who can compliment your weaknesses and vice versa).

I disagree with your post about hills though.  I think hills are very important...that the units should be using the terrain to their advantage on the maps.  I don't think we need giant mountains (considering how slow you move on upward slopes), but some elevation changes are important if you remove the fences, houses, and other man made structures.  As cavalry, I think it's completely fair that archers and infantry should be able to fight on the top of a hill that I can't do much to help out with.  That's just plain smart.


But it really depends on the exact size and shape of the hills. Due to the way the engine handles terrain and movement, the same elevation can cause a dead stop and be lethal to cav, or just a small deceleration. The former tends to happen when the mapmaker forgot to use the terrain smoothing tool.


A map with smooth hills is usually the most balanced because both footmen teams will naturally stick together and head towards the hill, and that will naturally cause a concentration of ranged power in one spot, which is extremely lethal to cav.

In this situation only a well balanced team can win since :
- Archers need at least some inf to protect them in the odd chance of a massive cav charge, and also to force the enemy to open up, make the enemy cav move and expose itself, etc. cav also acts as a good anti-cav, or at least can engage enemy cav long enough without dying.
- Cav needs inf to distract the enemy and archers to shoot down the horse archers
- Inf needs archers to weaken the enemy shieldless inf and kill the enemy cav hunting the engaged melee.

Also generally speaking, archers gain the tactical advantages and force the other team to take action (like any form of artillery), melee take the blows and horsemen make the killing.