Author Topic: Crossbows and the Return of FPS  (Read 16166 times)

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Offline v/onMega

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Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
« Reply #135 on: March 25, 2011, 10:42:11 am »
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Simple facts:

Archery needs PD / Wpf.
PD allows you to use high tier bows.

Makes sense.

Throwing atleast needs high PT and some WPF due to non existing accuracy (I got a dedic. thrower).

Somehow makes sense (argueable).

Now xbow:
No special requirement, no wpf needed.
Once you mastered to predict when and where to aim, you get accurate with 0 wpf added.

This just totally doesnt make sense.
Xbow needs the same req. system archery has.

@ Tai Feng I use snipe xbow as dedicated 2H, Nubert even loomed it as dedic. Polearmer...

@ Gorath
You ve never seen a skilled dedicated xbow man i assume.
Whenever DaveUKR isnt busy getting banned....he has 10 : 1 kd on battle EU servers with a 3xLoomed (oneshooting)snipe xbow @ ~ 170 Wpf and still is super effective as a 2h @ 70 wpf.

He is the living reincarnated fpsgamer...

Offline Vibe

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Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
« Reply #136 on: March 25, 2011, 11:14:01 am »
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It's easy getting kills even with 0 wpf and no skills invested with crossbow.

Offline MouthnHoof

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Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
« Reply #137 on: March 25, 2011, 11:50:36 am »
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You know you need to stand still to reload a crossbow, right?

I don't shell out coin by the thousand to fire one bolt per round.  I have a desire to play as a crossbowman, which means using my crossbow as a primary weapon.  Which means standing still and firing it as often as possible, and damn the chumps that consider this 'camping'.
Camping is not what you do while the reload animation plays out. Camping is climbing on a roof 20 seconds into the frame and staying up there will the frame ends or you get killed. Standard modus operandi for most archers/xbowmen. A minority of archers actually follow the infantry from close behind. Xbowmen that follow the infantry use their xbows as muskets. While still despicable and gay it is infinitely better than the "archer on the roof" - Wasn't there a musical with this name? ahhh no, it was "fiddler...", another annoying string instrument.

Offline Phazey

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Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
« Reply #138 on: March 25, 2011, 12:19:15 pm »
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All these roofcamping archers and cossbowmen are extremely vulnerable to good teamplay, a shield and a ladder.
Talk to your teammates and make a plan. Assault their camp spot. Fine a route that has cover. Deploy a ladder. Stick together with your teammates and rush them from behind.

The bigger battles (50 vs 50 or more) are a rangefest at the start. That's fine. Working as intended, i'd say. All this whining about ranged reaching a critical mass... just get a proper shield, flank them or deploy a ladder to get to them quickly. You are not supposed to be able to charge 50 players with your melee character with no shield and no plan. If you get shot trying to melee in the middle of the frey with a dozen ranged classes looking at you.... d'oh, next time fight in cover or attack them from behind.

Set up a nice ambush somewhere. Try to get a safe area to fight by positioning your own ranged teammates and sticking with them. Or fight somewhere where you have good cover.

And most important of all: get a good shield and high athletics. My main character, a 1h + shield cavalry guy with high althletics and a huscarl shield on his back for on foot does fine against three archers. Flank. Don't let yourself get outmaneuvered. And keep up that shield.

And most important of all: use teamplay. A squad of melee can easily rush enemy positions and cause havoc.

There is a lot of ranged, but there always has been a lot of ranged. There are less archers and more throwers and xbow men now. Maybe throwing needs a little nerf. Maybe not. About throwing being able to 'reload' endlessly: picking up throwing weapons on the battlefield means you must be directly in the line of fire, by definition, to pick up ammo. That is very dangerous and often not worth it. That said, i think throwing needs a little nerf. It's a bit OP, because it's very accurate with low wpf.

Reading Rhade's eloquent posts, i'd almost think he's right. But he's not. I play almost every night and i've seen the flavor of the month ranged classes change the last half year from lots and lots of dedicated archers to some archers and lots and lots of melee / xbow or melee / throwing hybrids. That's fine with me. I just hide behind my trusty huscarl, keep it pointed the right way and try to figure out a way to get to them darned campers.

It's why i always lug these huge ladders around. So i can deploy it, denying some archers a good roofspot and going in a rampage myself. When i get to those dedicated ranged players, they are often stuck in tunnelvision mode and i feel like a fox in the henhouse. :P
It's even better when my team figures out what i'm doing and rushes to help me out.

Really, ranged is indeed very annoying as a melee only class, especially in the bigger battles. This is fine. There are ways to get to them. Teamplay, using ladders yourself and flanking all work. A good shield also helps.

Offline Tears of Destiny

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Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
« Reply #139 on: March 25, 2011, 05:09:51 pm »
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(click to show/hide)

This is the most intelligent post I have seen.
I'm not normal and I don't pretend so, my approach is pretty much a bomb crescendo.
Death is a fun way to pass the time though, several little bullets moving in staccato.
The terror of my reign will live on in infamy, singing when they die like a dead man's symphony.

Offline Zisa

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Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
« Reply #140 on: March 25, 2011, 06:49:20 pm »
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Tears....
Not everyone wants to lug a huscarl shield around and a ladder, or have to make an athletics build.
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Offline Punisher

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Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
« Reply #141 on: March 25, 2011, 06:56:56 pm »
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The problem is that after the shield forcefield removal you need at least 4 shield skill if you want some ranged protection so unless you're a 1h+shield you're fcked. Low skill shields were good before the patch (i used to have a heater shield and it was doing it's job fine) now they are completely useless, they slow you down too much too make it worth and only protect against projectiles that come at you close to a 90 degree angle, otherwise you will get hit.

The usual round for me as a 2hander is hiding for the first 2-3 minutes, than charge in and get a few kills, than hide again till the roofcampers jump or the friendly ranged kill them. So from a 7 minute round, I spend more than half the time doing nothing. This is a big reason that pushes people towards getting a ranged weapon and with xbow requiring only some wpf it's easy to understand why it's the most popular.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2011, 07:04:37 pm by Punisher »

Offline Tears of Destiny

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Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
« Reply #142 on: March 25, 2011, 07:11:26 pm »
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Tears....
Not everyone wants to lug a huscarl shield around and a ladder, or have to make an athletics build.

true, and very good points.

However, recently I stopped playing my archer entirely, and started purely using my Alt who is to be very specific the following:
(click to show/hide)

This is a STR based build designed not for duels but for Battle, it may not be the best but it is my "style."
I do die from range, I admit that, but I mainly find that personally if I do not charge in willy-nilly my life span drastically increases. Waiting for shielders to clear the way and create holes, and instead of being in front of them just be behind them a few paces back, seems to work very well for me. While dying to range can be very irritating sometimes if caught in a hailstorm, I can usually identify what I could have done to have avoided that death or at least have lasted significantly longer.

Yes, a 2Her/polearm build (at least mine) can be difficult against range, and I still think that the crossbow "sidearm" spam is just insanity, I also think that with tactics it can usually be greatly reduced for lethality.

I play on a TS with The Fallen Brigade, so at least we can communicate very well with one another, but I notice that when working together we have lifespans long enough to have an appreciable influence on the battlefield. If you are out by yourself even with no TS or clan to back you up, you can still "tag along" with an intelligent group and avoid moving into the deathtraps for the most part. Of course you will still occasionally die from a lucky arrow or a sniper or a "shotgun" xbowman around the corner, but more often then not you should be dying from other sources.

I am honestly enjoying my guy with no actual shield to protect himself from (The shield I only bring along if a select group of people are playing, as it always saves me from dying from a throwing lance, otherwise I ditch it as it is not needed), and the challenge is not over the top. Sure, it can be rough against range, but I also have an easy time (comparatively) against Cav, and still manage to die more often in melee or from a close-in throwing weapon then I do to bolts and arrows.

Or I am absurdly lucky. I don't know, all I know is that I believe I found proper tactics to survive.
I'm not normal and I don't pretend so, my approach is pretty much a bomb crescendo.
Death is a fun way to pass the time though, several little bullets moving in staccato.
The terror of my reign will live on in infamy, singing when they die like a dead man's symphony.

Offline Zisa

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Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
« Reply #143 on: March 25, 2011, 07:27:12 pm »
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I was going to similarily build a plearm/thrower hybrid. However, as pointless as it may be, think I will do a test thrower and take loads of screenies documenting wpf, pt, weight worn, movement. Though the lol's are running around with throwing lances now, I suspect BkS shenanigans to prove a point.
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Offline Tears of Destiny

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Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
« Reply #144 on: March 25, 2011, 07:53:59 pm »
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I was going to similarily build a plearm/thrower hybrid. However, as pointless as it may be, think I will do a test thrower and take loads of screenies documenting wpf, pt, weight worn, movement. Though the lol's are running around with throwing lances now, I suspect BkS shenanigans to prove a point.

The school of fish in blue robes with identical names? That group is amusing.

Regardless, to prove a point, don't use throwing lances and instead use Jarids. Throwing Lances can OS, but with a proper thrower you can one shot almost anything with Jarids as well, and you get twice the ammo.
I'm not normal and I don't pretend so, my approach is pretty much a bomb crescendo.
Death is a fun way to pass the time though, several little bullets moving in staccato.
The terror of my reign will live on in infamy, singing when they die like a dead man's symphony.

Offline Phazey

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Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
« Reply #145 on: March 25, 2011, 08:02:33 pm »
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My 2h alt and my polearm alt both have 2 shield skill and use that big old board shield. That provides excellent protection against ranged. No need to go 4 shield unless you are a 1h.
Even then, a 0 skill wooden shield can save your but when crossing the line of fire, doesn't cost anything and is easily dropped when not needed anymore. Mind you, it breaks after a few arrows and you get shot in feet or head. That's why i go for 2 shield on my alts.

Also, only one guy among your 50 teammates has to bring a ladder. If you find that the other team is camping a roof, discuss this while dead, ask who brings the ladder and escort him. Storm those roofs!  :)

Going 'no shield' on open maps with many players on is hard. Still, many 2h seem to do fine without it, even on the bigger battles.
What really helped me is playing as an archer for a while. It made me look at the battles from a different perspective and improved my awareness a bit. Knowing all those good archer spots and more importantly their lines of fire helps.

Offline Tears of Destiny

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Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
« Reply #146 on: March 25, 2011, 08:06:19 pm »
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What really helped me is playing as an archer for a while. It made me look at the battles from a different perspective and improved my awareness a bit. Knowing all those good archer spots and more importantly their lines of fire helps.

That is actually what helps me, my main is an Archer with heirloomed bow, and plenty of practice. From all those hours of sniping, or the hours of moving with melee troops and running and gunning alongside them and providing close-in support, I know perfectly how to make my 2Her avoid the vast majority of snipeshots.

Everything I remember a player doing to my archer that fouled him up, I do as my 2Her and it works great.

To be fair though, a select few maps are crap due to unavoidable sniper lanes. I dislike those no matter what I am playing, but that is more a fault of the map...
I'm not normal and I don't pretend so, my approach is pretty much a bomb crescendo.
Death is a fun way to pass the time though, several little bullets moving in staccato.
The terror of my reign will live on in infamy, singing when they die like a dead man's symphony.

Offline EponiCo

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Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
« Reply #147 on: March 25, 2011, 11:40:08 pm »
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I really agree to Phaz here.
It all comes down to choices and consequences. You don't want to invest points (that you easily have as pure 2h) into shield, you don't get good protection from ranged. But even 0 shield heater shield has saved my life from throwing lance/crossbow bolt in Fallen Tournament, not that it mattered much.  :lol:
You don't want to buy useless agility, deal with it. If you want to make a pure 2h without shields that's risky, but perfectly viable. You can die early, but when you time your charge right you make a few kills and sometimes you just press "w" and never let go until you bump into the enemy spawn. Noone can tell me that pure 2h isn't strong when I've been on top 5 on almost every map with it. In fact, if you don't accept that risk and rather hide some more, that's making ranged only stronger.

edit: I don't mind making crossbows more skilldependent though
« Last Edit: March 25, 2011, 11:50:19 pm by EponiCo »

Offline Rhade

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Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
« Reply #148 on: March 26, 2011, 04:24:54 am »
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You just totally sidestepped my points and decided to just make your own, so I'm not going to give you the courtesy of even responding in a fair manner.
I'll just say you're wrong.

Offline Darkkarma

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Re: Crossbows and the Return of FPS
« Reply #149 on: March 26, 2011, 05:17:15 am »
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It's been rage inducing me since long before pre patch...
I still hate xbows. I hate watching certain people go camp the same spot on the map, every round.

Here's a proposal .. cut ALL ammo stacks in half.

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