Internal poleaxe balance

[Vibe]

Make the poleaxe unbalanced and give the elegant more speed OR pierce?

Imo I'd just chip away 2 or 3 damage off that stab, would be enough.

[Lactose_the_intolerant]

Make the poleaxe unbalanced and give the elegant more speed OR pierce?

making it unbalanced would kill the weapon

elegant doesnt really need extra cut but maybe 2p for the thrust.

poleaxe could lose 1 or 2 p

[Tears of Destiny]

If the poleaxe is nerfed then it woud be even less used due to the silly strong glaive. The damage % postings iirc already have the poleaxe at the very low end of useage compared to other polearms. I would love to see the elegant properly buffed instead.

If the poleaxe is nerfed then the glaive should be tweaked as well.

[Quallen]

Your data is outdated

http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,25086.msg362541.html#msg362541

I of course appreciate the testers efforts but at the very least some of those results are demonstrably false.  Polearm stab is not polearms shortest attack as shown by waltF4s 2nd video. Based on that glaring mistake I'll stick with the old established numbers as they jive pretty well with my in game experience (6 gens of 2h followed by 7 of polearms)[but really I'd love nothing more than one of the devs to pop in here and correct me with their numbers.]

As for actual poleaxe balance, it feels pretty good.

-The poleaxe gives you devastating pierce damage and the range lets you footwork an extra hit now and then vs shielders. If you have to duel a competent longswordsmen you're gonna have a bad time. Still its excellent at its job and feels good to use.

-The german gives you the best cut and even though its less pierce than the poleaxe its still amazing pierce damage. Yeah you've got less range so you probably aren't getting any free hits in but that also means your weapon doesn't get stuck on as much shit. When I had it I was perfectly happy with it and if the poleaxe takes any nerfs i'll gladly go back to it.

-The elegant is in a wierd spot but seemingly balanced. The other members of your family are better at bursting shields than you. You don't do as much damage as your relatives but its still decent damage (stab is the same as bec stab and really you've never once had a bec user spin stab you in the face and thought, yeah that seems underpowered.) Its speed puts you in a pretty good position vs most everything so when you don't have any support it seems like a reasonable choice (of course its a tough repair bill to swallow if your team is getting crushed.) I can never bring myself around to owning one but whenever I pick one up i'm happy with it. I want to do something to increase its usage but I just can't figure it out. Basically if you took a German Greatsword and gave it polearm animations but on the plus side gave it the ability to break shields it would be called the elegant poleaxe so when you look at it like that I don't know how you could adjust it without making it overpowered.

[Lactose_the_intolerant]

Basically if you took a German Greatsword and gave it polearm animations but on the plus side gave it the ability to break shields it would be called the elegant poleaxe so when you look at it like that I don't know how you could adjust it without making it overpowered.

the german greatsword would also lose range if you give if polearm animation

[Quallen]

the german greatsword would also lose range if you give if polearm animation

Yep, polearm animations are more distinct (easier to differentiate) and less range which is a big minus but on the other hand shield breaking is a big plus against anyone who doesn't fall for stutter swing. If you turned the pike of tears into the elegant poleaxe, animations and all, are you sure you'd think it needs a buff? (The flamberge has mostly polearm animations already so there is a precedent for it.) I know its a silly thought experiment as all 2h shield breakers are unbalanced but its not like it would be game breaking to increase the cost of one of the 2h shieldbreakers and make it balanced.

[Lactose_the_intolerant]

the core problem, which i believed to have underlined in my very first post, is that the elegant is the most expensive and the top polearm but is worse then the other poleaxe and for some is even outclassed by some lower polearms such as glaive or bardiche

[Quallen]

Its true that part of the allure of polearms is you usually get to pick a weapon thats the best at what it does. It may have shortcomings but what it does it does well.

The bec is the best can opener but has low range and since the nerfs really doesn't put out top tier damage against low armored opponents.

The long spear lets you support teammates at extreme melee range but you can only stab.

The awlpike does the best stab damage but only has 2 attacks.

The glaive gives you the longest range side swings but has a mediocre pierce and the speed (much like the GLB, poleaxe, or german) means if you have to fight a good heavy bastard or longswords men your gonna have a bad time. At least on NA I think the complaints against it have more to do with balanced builds dancing in and out of the range of all the strength retards than anything to do with the weapon itself.

And of course you get to choose from a range of balanced shieldbreakers. Its true that elegant doesn't fit the mold of best at something while having shortcomings but thats because it doesn't have glaring shortcomings.  I agree with you that it can be a mental hurdle to use a polearm that doesn't fit the mold but of the shield breakers its the best for dueling.  I suppose you could argue that being a polearm its 132 range is actually a shortcoming so maybe the devs could look at tweaking its range a little. I can see 138 or 139 making sense (enough to make me seriously consider switching to it but not so much that everyone switches outright.)

[Lactose_the_intolerant]

you seem to be evading the problem by saying "it's not too bad"

and for dueling, dezi uses a poleaxe and he kicks loads of people's asses

[Quallen]

Loads of people are terrible. Should we balanced based on that? I make every weapon i use (war spear, poleaxe, glaive, bec) look good. That doesn't change the fact that I'm often left saying "my life is shit right now" whenever I have to fight a skilled heavy bastard sword with my poleaxe. I would be less disadvantaged in that situation if I was using an elegant. If I want to be in the best shape to fight off a fast swords men then I'd use my war spear but then I'd do a less damage (than an elegant) and not be able to break shields. You say the 89 speed of the poleaxe is enough but thats an over simplification. Its enough if the relative difference between it and your opponents weapon is small. Fighting a 3 speed faster danish is no big deal. Fighting a 98 speed HBS that hilt slashs and double swings like it is its job is a massive pain in the ass with a weapon that's 9 speed slower.

I feel ya when you say the elegant feels like it needs a change. But if you give it more damage I swap my poleaxe for an elegant immediately. If you give it more speed I swap my poleaxe for it immediately. That should tell you something about the balance. A range buff seems to be the only thing I can think of that wouldn't make it overpowered.

[Lactose_the_intolerant]

what?

this is not about making elegant better then poelaxe, its more about getting the elegant out of it's clear inferiority. it has superior pricing and is top polearm but it inferior to other poelarm, is that so hard to understand?

[Teeth]

The power of the elegant poleaxe lies in its elegance. It's so expensive while having shitty stats because it stuns people with its elegance.

[Quallen]

what?

this is not about making elegant better then poelaxe, its more about getting the elegant out of it's clear inferiority. it has superior pricing and is top polearm but it inferior to other poelarm, is that so hard to understand?

You can fidget with the price all you want but if you're a min maxer who "needs" their weapon to be the best at something you're still going to be unhappy. You think shaving 1.2k off of a 15.6k weapon(making it poleaxe price) or swapping their prices or making them all 15k is going to "fix" it for you? They all just fall under the category of expensive in my mind. If the extra 1.2k is making or breaking a loadout for you i don't know what to tell you.

[HUSTLER]

I dunno why people use a poleaxe in the first place when u can use a glaive or ashwood pike 

[Quallen]

Its true that were aren't talking about terribly overused weapons here. source.

Percentage of polearm damage done for each

EU
Poleaxe - 1.89%  
German Poleaxe -1.78%  
Elegant Poleaxe -1.54%  

NA
Elegant Poleaxe - 2.53%  
Poleaxe -1.92%  
German Poleaxe  - 1.30%