Rebalancing Daggers and Knives

[Heroin]

I don't agree with this for the following reasons:

1.) What you propose punishes people who use dagger/shield builds currently.
2.) Dagger speed is TONS faster than sword speeds. A 10-15 speed difference is a LOT.

Those two issues aside, the long dagger was nerfed in the big patch. Pre-patch, my masterwork long dagger did something around 30-31 pierce with a thrust. Personally, I think the pre-patch stats were good, and would not be adverse to seeing the stats reverted to pre-patch values.

Aside from that, I think a 0 requirement weapon with 115 speed and 30-31 pierce(masterwork) is very good already. It allows people to have builds such as a 3 str, 36 agi build, with athletics 12, and a 1h wpf of 200.

If anyone is curious, I had this build(or one very similar) pre-patch. It works because the high WPF paired with the added speed bonus from athletics makes up for the distinct lack of PS in the build. But, every little thing one-shots you.

[Konrax]

The only problem with daggers right now is the time it takes to draw one.

Takes longer to draw your dagger than any other weapon from what it seems like.

[Keshian]

+1 OP, it also makes some realism sense since rather than a larger clunky sword stabbing at general points in a person's armor, a dagger user moves in close and can do precise stabs to the weak points of the armor like under the armpit, the groin, and behind the neck because they can angle attacks better with a shorter weapon.  If anything there should be a precision assassin's dagger of 24 length that does 38 pierce damage.  Would really like to real ninjas and assassins, not the weak pseudo ones that just use the best swords in the game that don't match their theme.  Adds more character to the battlefield to have  another viable class out there.

[Banok]

would love to see daggers made viable to play with, would me more more lulzy characters I could play ^^

+1 OP

[Cyclopsided]

I don't agree with this for the following reasons:

1.) What you propose punishes people who use dagger/shield builds currently.
2.) Dagger speed is TONS faster than sword speeds. A 10-15 speed difference is a LOT.

1. Actually, not by much. By buffing the base damage but then adding a penalty with shields will put the dagger&shield user to have similar damage as they currently have under this system. Their damage would be several points lower for the long dagger, but the khyber knife in my example would have almost the exact same damage. However, to make their damage stay constant to what it is now with a shield, the weapons would need a +30% base damage raise since penalty with shield is -30%. That would be too much base damage probably -- although It still would probably not be OP due to lack of manual blocking. That would be a developer decision. I suggested they simply be in line with the swords for damage.

2.) That is a direct trade off for the lack of reach of the weapon. Also remember that due to low weight it gets a longer block stun when it is blocked so it can't spam with said speed.

[Heroin]

1. Actually, not by much. By buffing the base damage but then adding a penalty with shields will put the dagger&shield user to have similar damage as they currently have under this system. Their damage would be several points lower for the long dagger, but the khyber knife in my example would have almost the exact same damage. However, to make their damage stay constant to what it is now with a shield, the weapons would need a +30% base damage raise since penalty with shield is -30%. That would be too much base damage probably -- although It still would probably not be OP due to lack of manual blocking. That would be a developer decision. I suggested they simply be in line with the swords for damage.

2.) That is a direct trade off for the lack of reach of the weapon. Also remember that due to low weight it gets a longer block stun when it is blocked so it can't spam with said speed.

#1, +30% damage to counterbalance it will never happen. And for shielders to lose 30% speed and damage while using a dagger is simply stupid. It doesn't make ANY sense. Your idea of giving daggers a slight buff is ok. But giving them penalty with shield isn't.

Honestly, I think they should just buff the heirloomed stats of those weapons(not much, mind you). I'm thinking a couple extra points of damage to pierce OR cut, depending on the knife. It allows people who just want to use them as peasant weapons to still do so, while serious shankers can heirloom several times for serious shanking.

[Cyclopsided]

#1, +30% damage to counterbalance it will never happen. And for shielders to lose 30% speed and damage while using a dagger is simply stupid. It doesn't make ANY sense. Your idea of giving daggers a slight buff is ok. But giving them penalty with shield isn't.

Honestly, I think they should just buff the heirloomed stats of those weapons(not much, mind you). I'm thinking a couple extra points of damage to pierce OR cut, depending on the knife. It allows people who just want to use them as peasant weapons to still do so, while serious shankers can heirloom several times for serious shanking.

Penalty with shield is just the damage penalty not the speed penalty to my understanding. I reference --> [ http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,2624.msg46112.html#msg46112 ] 
And no, I firmly stand that daggers should not be as damaging as a sword for a shielder. That would be imba to have them have both the speed & damage whilst being able to auto-shield block. That is a god awful terribly bad idea and the entire reason they are nerfed as a whole currently.

Also, making only heirloomed stats increase is an even worse idea. "Yes, lets buff them but only for a special club of grinders tee-hee".

I fundamentally disagree with you on those statements.

[Konrax]

Honestly I carry around a long dagger and it works great against facehugger fast enemies.

Only problem is you get killed trying to draw it since it takes so long...

[Heroin]

And no, I firmly stand that daggers should not be as damaging as a sword for a shielder.

I thought you said the tradeoff was weapon length, and not damage? lol

I guess I'm just going to have to disagree with your entire idea, then. It's silly to give a dagger a penalty with shield. It makes no sense, and doesn't belong on that weapon. Again, revert stats to pre-patch values, and I think we'd be good.

Knives and Daggers are pretty much fine as they are now.

[Greziz]

You know the dagger already has a penalty with shield like every other weapon in this game? Swing your dagger without a shield and swing it with the shield on some targets in the duel arena notice the differences?

[Cyclopsided]

You know the dagger already has a penalty with shield like every other weapon in this game? Swing your dagger without a shield and swing it with the shield on some targets in the duel arena notice the differences?

There is the innate speed reduction of using a shield that applies to all weapons. Yes, it experiences the same that all swords do now and is not exempt from it. That is not the penalty with shield. The penalty with shield modifier is specifically a -30% damage modifier.

I thought you said the tradeoff was weapon length, and not damage? lol

I guess I'm just going to have to disagree with your entire idea, then. It's silly to give a dagger a penalty with shield. It makes no sense, and doesn't belong on that weapon. Again, revert stats to pre-patch values, and I think we'd be good.

Knives and Daggers are pretty much fine as they are now.

There is a clear trend in the weapons of trade off of speed for weapon length & some damage. However, as I am saying in this thread that since the daggers are non-manual blockable they should not follow the damage nerf. That the trade off then should just be shortness for speed as they have the highest risk for reward of any weapon in the game -- only to do less damage than other weapons. HOWEVER, the reason they do so little damage currently is because of how they are with shields -- because then they can block.

Besides, I am suggesting a damage increase across the board + a penalty with shields to keep how they are with shields ROUGHLY THE SAME. TBH I think it is ideal for a 30% increase + shield penalty as that would keep shielders -exactly- the same but encourage & buff users who use them without a shield.

I even have a few lines of reasoning to support their damage increase by 30% + shield penalty:
 1. [Balance] Since they are the highest risk weapons they should have high reward. Since a shield negates the higher risk, the reward should be lowered. It is also one of the mot skill-intensive ways to play.
2. [reality] Since they were sharpened rather than dulled like swords (since you did not block with them) & since they were used to hit precise areas and had better angling as shorter weapons; they should do more damage. However, since with a shield you are limited in mobility & don't have your other hand to help thrust it in, you can not do the damage with a dagger equivalent to that without a shield.

a +30% increase would look like this, and it is surprisingly reasonable for damage stats actually.

Long dagger : Cost 300 --> ~2000
weight 0.25
requirement 0
spd rtng 112
weapon length 47
swing damage 23, cut --> 30, cut
thrust damage 25, pierce ---> 32.5 (32, or 33?), Pierce (seems a bit too high for also having such good cut...)
+add Penalty with Shield

Khyber Knife : Cost 406 --> ~2100
weight 0.4
requirement 0
spd rtng 108
weapon length 60
swing damage 24, cut  ---> 31, cut
thrust damage 17 pierce --> 22.1
+add Penalty with Shield

**side note: I think maybe the khyber knife would need 33 cut on  swing just to be comparable to the long dagger then as it is already gimp in comparison, lol wow.

[Dravic]

Long dagger : Cost 300 --> ~3000
weight 0.25
requirement 0
spd rtng 112
weapon length 47
swing damage 23, cut --> 25, cut
thrust damage 25, pierce ---> 28
+add Penalty with Shield

Khyber Knife : Cost 406 --> ~2100
weight 0.4
requirement 0
spd rtng 108
weapon length 60
swing damage 24, cut  ---> 30, cut
thrust damage 17 pierce --> 20
+add Penalty with Shield

A bit changed, to not be overpowered (i know it wouldnt be, but some people would just say that 32 pierce dmg for dagger will be "INSTA KILL OH NOES!", even if it wouldnt be. ;) )

[Cyclopsided]

Dravic, that was about pretty much my first suggestion, but in hindsight I can see that it would penalize shielders too heavily. My modified post above with more user input (thanks to Heroin for making several good points) is a better solution as shielders would have absolutely no difference from playing as it is now to when it would be changed. However, a few points one way or another could be changed when modifying stats, as mine was simply an example of a straight 30% increase.

[Dravic]

Well, if your stats were accepted by Fasader, I would be FUCKIN AWESOME with either 9str/30agi build or 6str/33agi build ;D

I would heirloom long dagger asap.

[Cyclopsided]

Well, if your stats were accepted by Fasader, I would be FUCKIN AWESOME with either 9str/30agi build or 6str/33agi build ;D

I would heirloom long dagger asap.

Just keep in mind that athletics doesn't make you run faster, only accelerate to top speed faster. A guy in plate with 2 athletics can run as fast as a naked guy with 10 athletics in a straight line, so keep that in mind if you make a character like that.
Lot of weird stuff happened in the patch that was mostly eliminated by the level cap anyways, but ah well. I was thinking of making a thread to reinstate athletics increase your top speed... You have to understand that it was done to prevent archers who kited and could still kill people in a few shots. That isn't possible as of the damage & speed nerf to archery anymore... But oh well.
You may be more inclined to have more strength than that, is all I am saying. *fun fact: 13 athletics and you are always at your top speed! You can dance in combat if you are OK with having 3 strength lol.

*EDIT: I am leaving this post as it was; although it contains errors. Athletics does increase top speed but it is always raining, etc. Weight also rapes your speed.