Throwing Nerf

[Kophka]

As much as I absolutely love throwing (my main's been a horse-thrower since september) I hate the lances.

Reason 1) I think that pure thrower has absolutely no historic precedent, and I'm "that" type of guy. 2) While long throwing lances probably existed somewhere (the taleworlds devs were actually pretty serious about historic accuracy, read the M&B beta board), they just seem like a fantasy weapon to me.

These are subjective opinions, in no way related to numbers or balance issues, I just don't feel that they belong in the game. And the removal of throwing lances would probably end 80% of the "nerf throwing" calls.

[Seawied]

And the removal of throwing lances would probably end 80% of the "nerf throwing" calls.

Nah, people would still find a way to whine. Archers have been nerfed into oblivion and people still complain. There's a significant portion of the c-rpg community that wants the mod to make 2h weapons clearly superior than the rest of the classes.

[Mattressi]

Nah, people would still find a way to whine. Archers have been nerfed into oblivion and people still complain. There's a significant portion of the c-rpg community that wants the mod to make 2h weapons clearly superior than the rest of the classes.

I know I certainly would still whine. I have 10 PT on my thrower and usually 1-hit people who're wearing light to medium armour with my jarids. I've yet to meet someone who's required more than 2 hits to die. Certainly you can pull stats out saying that some 2h and polearm weapons can 1-hit as well; but they can be blocked by anyone who has a melee weapon equipped (indefinitely as well; someone with a low shield skill can only shield 1 of my jarids before it's destroyed). Besides that, a thrower can also attack when a melee user cannot and all that a melee user can do is try to dodge their hits (unless they're 1h with a decent shield skill). Then, if the melee guy makes it, they'll engage in a melee where the thrower can still attack anyway.

When playing my thrower doesn't feel like easy mode, I'll be happy with it. As it is, I don't play it because I feel cheap. I have to play at the top of my game and be constantly alert and active while playing my melee characters and even with my archer and arbalist, but with my thrower I literally just run around chucking heavy axes or jarids (depends on what I feel like; they both seem to be a guaranteed 2 shot kill on anyone anyway) in people's general direction and racking up kills. The only real downside to my thrower is that I'll usually only be able to get 6 kills per round from throwing (some are 1-hit kills, some people have a shield and need 3, so it usually evens out). My melee alts, however, can get an unlimited number of kills...assuming that everyone on the server sucks and runs at me single file. As it is, my thrower simply takes significantly less effort to get the same (or usually more) kills per round than any of my other characters.

[Tydeus]

2) While long throwing lances probably existed somewhere (the taleworlds devs were actually pretty serious about historic accuracy, read the M&B beta board), they just seem like a fantasy weapon to me.

They did exist, but they weren't even remotely used for what they are in crpg. When they were thrown, they were arced. Meaning they were thrown high into the air where they used gravity to increase its speed. Not thrown parallel to the ground at an oncoming target. This is a huge difference.

Seawied: Thanks for the more detailed numbers but the calculator does figure in minimum and maximum armor effectiveness as well as strength bonus. Still, 64% compared to 96% would reduce the damage a fair amount. Also, for the sake of "completeness" we should throw the maximum damage effectiveness in there, which would be 32 damage. With your formula, it would be 94 raw damage and 62 damage to 78 damage after armor, depending on armor effectiveness.

Still, comparing the numbers to that of the infinitum calculator its off by a lot, take out the speed bonus and I'm getting 31-54 damage. Not that I'm saying your numbers are made up, I'll just have to do some more research to find the formula myself. :x

[Seawied]

They did exist, but they weren't even remotely used for what they are in crpg. When they were thrown, they were arced. Meaning they were thrown high into the air where they used gravity to increase its speed. Not thrown parallel to the ground at an oncoming target. This is a huge difference.

Seawied: Thanks for the more detailed numbers but the calculator does figure in minimum and maximum armor effectiveness as well as strength bonus. Still, 64% compared to 96% would reduce the damage a fair amount. Also, for the sake of "completeness" we should throw the maximum damage effectiveness in there, which would be 32 damage. With your formula, it would be 94 raw damage and 62 damage to 78 damage after armor, depending on armor effectiveness.

Still, comparing the numbers to that of the infinitum calculator its off by a lot, take out the speed bonus and I'm getting 31-54 damage. Not that I'm saying your numbers are made up, I'll just have to do some more research to find the formula myself. :x

+1 for this post.


we do need to increase the speed bonus from 10% though. From my fiddling in single player the last 15 minutes or so, I'm starting to believe that 10% is vastly too low. The idea behind these numbers is to show a well timed and setup hit to the torso, and I feel that something along the lines of 25%-35% is very realistic, conservative, and easily obtainable by the average player. We want to calculate a good swing, rather than a mediocre/ill-timed swing.

Also, from here on out I think calculations of armor should be at 75% effectiveness to ensure an average.

What we will be unable to calculate: Head-hits, as there is considerable debate on the damage output of melee head-hits, sweet spot damage (because sweet spots were implemented post beta and after the vast majority of my testing,) and charged swing.


One part of the damage formula I am not certain of: the strength bonus. While every other bit of data is well documented, strength bonus is the most poorly defined.

[Templar_Ratigan]

Well id be happy with a damage nerf if the accuracy and velocity of throwing went back to what it used to be and it used to be pinpoint, trust me on this.

[Heroin]

Well id be happy with a damage nerf if the accuracy and velocity of throwing went back to what it used to be and it used to be pinpoint, trust me on this.

Why should anyone trust you on it? It's not true. Pre-patch, I was a thrower for 8 generations. I threw primarily lances. And yes, they could be thrown at a decent distance because of velocity, but they certainly were NEVER pinpoint accurate. Pre-patch, I had just about every thrower build you could imagine, including up to 12 PT on one build, and 13 PT on another.

[Templar_Ratigan]

Oh? Then how can I trust you?

Besides lances havn't changed much.

Other weapons are vastly different, jarids in particular are much much slower and with a heavier drop off than they used to have, plus they fly off a lot more now from my experience. As for 8 generation thrower how cute, my original thrower was before retireing even existed and once they put it in I got to around generation 12, big bag of darts, balanced war darts, balanced knives, balanced throwing spears and I think a big bag of snowflakes.

My original one was named PrimalSmirk, then it was dastikka for a while, then damugga, then this new patch came out and I lost my chars, something I was trying to rectify on IRC ages ago through Alpha, since I couldnt get on it, but which ive now given up on and instead made new characters.

But yeah you cant trust me anymore than I can trust you. Only people who could back me up on this would be the templars. Besides, I dont expect you to remember me much since I was a low key player and these days I hardly play atall and usually when I do im very lazy and sloppy . Im starting to wish I had been one of those vain players who make videos of themselves playing, but that's my loss.

[Heroin]

Oh? Then how can I trust you?

Besides lances havn't changed much.

Other weapons are vastly different, jarids in particular are much much slower and with a heavier drop off than they used to have, plus they fly off a lot more now from my experience. As for 8 generation thrower how cute, my original thrower was before retireing even existed and once they put it in I got to around generation 12, big bag of darts, balanced war darts, balanced knives, balanced throwing spears and I think a big bag of snowflakes.

My original one was named PrimalSmirk, then it was dastikka for a while, then damugga, then this new patch came out and I lost my chars, something I was trying to rectify on IRC ages ago through Alpha, since I couldnt get on it, but which ive now given up on and instead made new characters.

But yeah you cant trust me anymore than I can trust you. Only people who could back me up on this would be the templars. Besides, I dont expect you to remember me much since I was a low key player and these days I hardly play atall and usually when I do im very lazy and sloppy . Im starting to wish I had been one of those vain players who make videos of themselves playing, but that's my loss.

Alright...nothing you said even addressed the point I made, which was, throwing lances have NEVER been pinpoint accurate. That's it, nothing more, nothing less.

The "trust" issue was based directly on the point where you were saying that they WERE. All that other crap, irrelevant. Either way, I'm not posting to argue with you. I agree that throwing got nerfed HUGE when they lowered the projectile speed of ammo.

However, that throwing nerf occurred PRIOR to the influx of throwers, who lots of people are currently complaining about. Personally, I don't think throwing needs nerfed any further. It is fine, as is. And this is coming from someone who no longer plays a thrower, and plays non-ranged melee-only characters without a shield. I'm ok with all ranged classes, as frustrating as it may be to die to them.

[Templar_Ratigan]

Ah ok, then it seems were are in a similar mindset.

Sorry about the generalisation that they were all pinpoint, lances, as you said, are not, but then again as I said they havn't changed much.
Also as you quite rightly said, people have suddenly started noticing throwers and complaining about them, only because they got used.

However ive thrown in the towel somewhat when it comes to arguing about them as it seems most people have been propagandised into the mindset that throwing is this all powerful tool of destruction so I think regardless of what people like us say they will still probably get nerfed further if the complaints continue and towing that line I thought maybe if they did reduce damage that they would bring back the better velocity and less drop off.
Although I have noticed less and less throwers on the servers these days, so maybe the craze has ended. 

[Spawny]

Ah ok, then it seems were are in a similar mindset.

Sorry about the generalisation that they were all pinpoint, lances, as you said, are not, but then again as I said they havn't changed much.
Also as you quite rightly said, people have suddenly started noticing throwers and complaining about them, only because they got used.

However ive thrown in the towel somewhat when it comes to arguing about them as it seems most people have been propagandised into the mindset that throwing is this all powerful tool of destruction so I think regardless of what people like us say they will still probably get nerfed further if the complaints continue and towing that line I thought maybe if they did reduce damage that they would bring back the better velocity and less drop off.
Although I have noticed less and less throwers on the servers these days, so maybe the craze has ended. 

Crossbowing is the new throwing.

[Noble Crassius]

  I see a trend on the horizon...

[Heroin]

Crossbowing is the new throwing.

And people will complain about it, too. People won't stop complaining about ranged weapons until you HAVE to be specialized to use a ranged weapon, and even when specialized, you won't be able to effectively kill people. THEN, people will say, "Yeah, ranged weapons are good right now."

[Nemeth]

I don't think whining about range will ever stop. Even if you make every range weapon useless there still will be enough players that enjoy shooting people and those people will still whine. It doesn't matter that they would hardly feel the damage, as long as someone dares to interrupt their melee they will never shut up.

[Seawied]

And people will complain about it, too. People won't stop complaining about ranged weapons until you HAVE to be specialized to use a ranged weapon, and even when specialized, you won't be able to effectively kill people. THEN, people will say, "Yeah, ranged weapons are good right now."

I don't think whining about range will ever stop. Even if you make every range weapon useless there still will be enough players that enjoy shooting people and those people will still whine. It doesn't matter that they would hardly feel the damage, as long as someone dares to interrupt their melee they will never shut up.

quoted for truth!