Throwing Nerf

[Seawied]

But that is expected from a weapon most people pack with str build for the crushthrough.

This is the point I'm trying to make.

I ran the numbers a second time, and a player with 24 strength and 8 PS can 1 hit an opponent with less than a 10% speed bonus. This means that they don't even need to be running at you to land this kind of attack.


If you note as well: Greatmaul costs 2.5k less than a single stack of throwing lances, making it a much more economical choice. Most dedicated throwers have 3-4 stacks of throwing lances.

[Patricia]

Too bad the great maul can't be thrown, too bad the great maul can be outspammed relatively easily, too bad the great maul can be footworked relatively easily, too bad you can chamber the great maul, too bad you have to get within danger zone to attack with the great maul.

[Seawied]

Too bad the great maul can't be thrown, too bad the great maul can be outspammed relatively easily, too bad the great maul can be footworked relatively easily, too bad you can chamber the great maul, too bad you have to get within danger zone to attack with the great maul.

It can't be blocked either... even if you have a shield.   

Great maul has its weaknesses, but its a one hit killer. If you want me to run the numbers on a Bec or another high grade weapon, you'll see that one hit weapons are prevalent in the game

[Patricia]

But it can be chambered which reduce the damage GREATLY (peasants surviving 1-2 9 PS great maul overhead for exemple)

Also yes, there's alot of one hitting weapons in this game, though at the very least you can block them, something you can't do with throwing lances, if the guy is even decently experienced with them, you're pretty much fucked, unless you're a 10 athletics naked build running away as fast as lightning.

[Seawied]

You can block them... you just need a shield. Two handed weapons have enormous killing power, and are very reasonably vulnerable to ranged weapons.


You can dodge throwing lances too. Buy a shit-shield just to be on the safe side, approach with the shield, pull out your weapon when you can face hug them. If they try to throw, they will suffer the bump animation.


P.S. Even if you chamber block a crush-through weapon, it reduces the damage by the same amount as if you blocked with a shield.

[Patricia]

You can block them... you just need a shield. Two handed weapons have enormous killing power, and are very reasonably vulnerable to ranged weapons.


You can dodge throwing lances too. Buy a shit-shield just to be on the safe side, approach with the shield, pull out your weapon when you can face hug them. If they try to throw, they will suffer the bump animation.


P.S. Even if you chamber block a crush-through weapon, it reduces the damage by the same amount as if you blocked with a shield.

Pretty sure that's false, on my 9 PS guy I tried the great maul and I had to hit a peasant THRICE to kill him, he chambered my first two overheads.

[Seawied]

If you can get some raw data that speaks to your theory, I'd be very interested. The problem with anecdotes is that there are so many other factors that could contribute to the outcome. As it stands, I'm about 95% certain crush through damage is calculated the same regardless of block type.

[Noble Crassius]

Pretty sure you can't chamber a CT overhead...

[Heroin]

Pretty sure that's false, on my 9 PS guy I tried the great maul and I had to hit a peasant THRICE to kill him, he chambered my first two overheads.

Chambering a great maul provides the same protection as if you had blocked normally with whatever weapon you're chambering with. Polearms and Two handers have a higher block factor than shields, by about 20% according to their weight. So a 4 weight weapon will prevent about 20% more damage than a 4 weight shield against a successful crushthrough. This formula has been confirmed and posted by a developer in another forum post, although I am admittedly recalling the numbers from memory.

Pretty sure you can't chamber a CT overhead...

Yes, you can chamber it, but if it would have crushed through a normal block, it will crush through the chamber as well. However, doing either a chamber or normal block both lower the damage of the overhead strike, so blocking is still worth it if you can't hit them before they swing.

[Tydeus]

Seawied, I'm rather disappointed that you would immediately choose to use a weapon which several people think is op, then you offer to run the numbers with another weapon that people think is broken, the bec. Both of these weapons being the highest damage of their class against mid to high armored foes. You first use blunt damage, then you use pierce damage. Most 2hers that are used are cut damage, same with poleaxes. How about you run the numbers with one of the highest tier, most popular weapons. Your damage won't be anywhere near as high.

Throwing in a damn 50% speed bonus isn't just a bit ridiculous, it's completely bullshit. You will never have a 50% speed bonus as melee, ever. Just go into single player, go to the arena and run directly towards your foe who is likely running directly toward you. If you can get higher than a 30% speed bonus I want a screen shot. You'll probably get a 10% and under most of the time. I'll concede the point if you're only stating what is "possible" not what will happen the vast majority of the time in reality. We might as well bring up the fact that 1handers can one-shot people as well if we're talking about what is "possible".

With your build and the highest damaging 2her swung with 8 power swing and zero speed bonus, you have a damage range of 45 to 63. Nowhere in here does it allow someone to conclude "frequently one shot". Throw some cut damage in there and you get "never", even with a reasonable 10% speed bonus. Don't tweak numbers so they're in your favor, you're too intelligent to be pulling bullshit like this.

Pretty sure you can't chamber a CT overhead...

You can, one of two things will happen. You successfully block their attack and get your own off(this is rare as hell) or they crush your chamber as if it were a block, which is what they're talking about.

[Heroin]

Throwing in a damn 50% speed bonus isn't just a bit ridiculous, it's completely bullshit. You will never have a 50% speed bonus as melee, ever. Just go into single player, go to the arena and run directly towards your foe who is likely running directly toward you.

For people familiar with how the physics of this game functions, it is not too difficult to get a pretty good speed bonus by moving into your swings, and swinging based on the movement of your enemy. On horseback, I have seen 300% speed bonuses. I'm pretty sure on foot, you can get 50%. I will test in singleplayer and try to get you a SS.

[Tydeus]

For people familiar with how the physics of this game functions, it is not too difficult to get a pretty good speed bonus by moving into your swings, and swinging based on the movement of your enemy. On horseback, I have seen 300% speed bonuses. I'm pretty sure on foot, you can get 50%. I will test in singleplayer and try to get you a SS.

I did manage to get a 31% speed bonus, but that was with a jump. Otherwise I wasn't really able to get anything above 20% on foot. Simply running directly towards an opponent that was also charging me would only net a max speed bonus of 15%. I'll admit I only tested this over the duration of two full length arena battles. Regardless, it seems like we're talking about something that is rather rare, not something you can consistently do, especially with more and more people getting less athletics. It might also be worth mentioning that in the area you are completely naked, thus not slowed by body armor, adding to your speed.

[Seawied]

Seawied, I'm rather disappointed that you would immediately choose to use a weapon which several people think is op, then you offer to run the numbers with another weapon that people think is broken, the bec. Both of these weapons being the highest damage of their class against mid to high armored foes. You first use blunt damage, then you use pierce damage. Most 2hers that are used are cut damage, same with poleaxes. How about you run the numbers with one of the highest tier, most popular weapons. Your damage won't be anywhere near as high.

Throwing in a damn 50% speed bonus isn't just a bit ridiculous, it's completely bullshit. You will never have a 50% speed bonus as melee, ever. Just go into single player, go to the arena and run directly towards your foe who is likely running directly toward you. If you can get higher than a 30% speed bonus I want a screen shot. You'll probably get a 10% and under most of the time. I'll concede the point if you're only stating what is "possible" not what will happen the vast majority of the time in reality. We might as well bring up the fact that 1handers can one-shot people as well if we're talking about what is "possible".

With your build and the highest damaging 2her swung with 8 power swing and zero speed bonus, you have a damage range of 45 to 63. Nowhere in here does it allow someone to conclude "frequently one shot". Throw some cut damage in there and you get "never", even with a reasonable 10% speed bonus. Don't tweak numbers so they're in your favor, you're too intelligent to be pulling bullshit like this.

You can, one of two things will happen. You successfully block their attack and get your own off(this is rare as hell) or they crush your chamber as if it were a block, which is what they're talking about.

40% to 50% isn't unreasonable in single player.

You want a cutting damage sword? Sure, no problem. Numbers line up the same

45c from sarranid battle axe (an incredibly inexpensive weapon by the way.)

1 * ((45 * (1 + 0.64) * (1 + ((150 / 200) * .015)) * (1 + 0.10)) + (24 - 14)) = 92
armor= 40.
40*.5*.8=16
92-16=76

Still, a one shot kill.

I have yet to see someone complain about the Sarranid battle axe. It also costs 1/3rd the price of a throwing lance. This was also calculated with a 10% speed bonus. Verdict stands that 1-shotting weapons are plentiful in the game.


::edit:: Replaced PD bonus to PS bonus

[Tydeus]

40% to 50% isn't unreasonable in single player.

You want a cutting damage sword? Sure, no problem. Numbers line up the same

45c from sarranid battle axe (an incredibly inexpensive weapon by the way.)

1 * ((45 * (1 + 0.96) * (1 + ((150 / 200) * .015)) * (1 + 0.10)) + (24 - 14)) = 108.111475
armor= 40.
40*.5*.8=16
108-16=92

Still, a one shot kill.

I have yet to see someone complain about the Sarranid battle axe. It also costs 1/3rd the price of a throwing lance. This was also calculated with a 10% speed bonus. Verdict stands that 1-shotting weapons are plentiful in the game.

.96 is 12 power strike, not 8 power strike, the maximum you could have with 24 strength. You also can't have 150 wpf with 12 or even 8 PS. Meaning your numbers are impossible to achieve.

Edit: I'm also not sure about your armor reduction formula as you haven't explained that anywhere and it's completely off compared to the Infinitum crpg damage calculator. I also can't imagine 40 armor only reduces 16 damage from a cut weapon.

[Seawied]

Thanks for catching that. Was using a PD bonus instead of PS. Still fatal.


Infinitum crpg damage calculator does not calculate speed bonus nor does it calculate minimum or maximum armor effectiveness or strength bonus. This formula is more complete.


Also, the character is achievable. Here would be the stats

Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)

    * Strength: 24
    * Agility: 15
    * Hit points: 71

    * Converted: 8
    * Ironflesh: 6
    * Power Strike: 8
    * Shield: 0
    * Athletics: 4
    * Riding: 0
    * Horse Archery: 0
    * Power Draw: 0
    * Power Throw: 0
    * Weapon Master: 5

    * One Handed: 1
    * Two Handed: 148
    * Polearm: 1
    * Archery: 1
    * Crossbow: 1
    * Throwing: 1

2 wpf shy of 150. So insignificant that its not even worth redoing the calculations



Warband's armor effectiveness formula randomly generates between 50% - 100% effectiveness. Its hardcoded into the game. The armor effectiveness formula is as follows

Base effective armor * (0.5 through 1.0 armor effectiveness) * Damage type soak= total damage reduction from armor
In our case it is
40 * 0.5 (for a fortunate roll) * 0.8 = 16