Proposed bow modification to produce different functions/playstyles

[Gisbert_of_Thuringia]

To be blunt, if this is implemented I almost expect to see a negative reaction from infantry who will then complain about the arrows they are being hit with that they can do nothing about.

ie: "You took away ladders and rooftop camping, but now archers can't even be reached AT ALL because they stand behind their team and if you focus on the archer you'll be melee spammed to death!"

True true^^   So is the rest about the score doesn't matter when you know you killed the pony^^

[Lordark]

This change sounds realistic and as one of the few tar tar bow users Id think this change would be ok on 1 condition

Make Tartar reload faster because they were used by horse archers at pretty close range to pepper foes.

Make longbow reload slower cuz the torque needed to fire the bows was great so id be slower (also to compensate for increased accuracy.)

[Leshma]

Arrows fly ridiculously slow already.

Everything is slow in this mod... except horses.

[Rumblood]

This change sounds realistic and as one of the few tar tar bow users Id think this change would be ok on 1 condition

Make Tartar reload faster because they were used by horse archers at pretty close range to pepper foes.

Make longbow reload slower cuz the torque needed to fire the bows was great so id be slower (also to compensate for increased accuracy.)

Maybe on the Tatar, no on the Long Bow. Reload is already way too long.

[XyNox]

Hey Xynox, yeah GrannPappy is practically a synonym for archer.

The numbers that I suggested were actually already implemented once before(roughly), but it was across the range of bows. That change was reverted. However, during that time, I had adopted to the style and was doing better with those bows than previously after I adjusted my tactics. To be very honest, I was unhappy when the changes were reverted. It took away my ability to shoot enemies sitting somewhere to which I had no direct Line Of Sight. (over rooftops, hills, or behind friendly infantry)

So I respectfully disagree with the assertion that this would be a nerf. Trust me. When you can stand behind your friendly infantry lobbing arrows into the enemy unharrassed, your scores will certainly improve. Currently archers must shoot through gaps (risking team hits) or find a different angle (which means the friendly infantry is no longer a buffer for you)

...

So it is intended to be a buff ? OK. Change the flight arch this way but keep the missile speed and damage. This way it might be a buff, although I would prefere the old mechanics. Even better would be to increase missile speed, not to native level of course, but higher than turtle speed at least.

[Bulzur]

The thing i don't like about this "suggestion", is because it will need to "relearn" the class all over again. Wich we already do everytime there was a patch change.

At the moment, with an horn bow, i already need to aim way higher than the target, wich leads to :"guessing where the target will move, guessing how long the arrow will fly before hitting the target".

I understand that you just don't want people sniping with hornbows (wich at the moment, only a few effectively do, mind you), but the reason i choose the hornbow over the longbow is for a different playstyle, wich is... fast aiming. I already find it easy enough to shoot down horses, and lowering missile speed will just INCREASE the damage i do to theses horses, wich will undoubtedly result in a damage nerf (ZOMG, my horse died in one hit ! I don't care if it was an headshot and i was galloping to him, no fair). So in the end, the horn bow will have less missile speed, and less base damage. Now tell me how that is not a nerf, but actually a buff.

And seriously, leaving the rusbow alone is... clearly not a good idea. You want to make bows different, then lower the speed rating of the rusbow wich is nearly as good as the hornbow, even though it's way easier to aim with it.

I personnaly think there's already enough difference between the bows that make people choose one over another.

Longbow : huge damage, slow reload speed. Used in ambush long range against non-moving targets, or in mid-range against melee.

Rusbow : Good damage. Good reload speed. Good accuracy. Best overall bow. imo

Hornbow : Decent damage. Good reload speed (slightly better than rusbow). Used against cavs, or archer duels. (not ambush mind you, what's the point of shooting one time if you know you need 3 arrows for that archer, and that he'll easily dodge thoses curved arrows you send him)

Tatar bow : Why would you use that if you're not an horse archer with 12 strength. Please enligthen me.


PS : If lowering missile speed is, in your way, considered as a buff, then please ask the devs to lower your bow to 8 missile speed = AWESOME HUGE BUFF. Or, just take a throwing weapon.

[Aleta]

I think bigger differences between the bow would be a good change. If the reduced missile speed on the smaller bows makes too much of a nerf, one could rather increase their weapon speed slightly.

[Rumblood]

I don't consider the current "differences" to be a real difference. It is 1 slider bar. One side is faster, less damage and the other slower, more damage. It does not allow for true play style and only minor niche differences.

The Tatar bow (which by the way has a slower missile speed and has an even more pronounced arc than the Horn) shines as the bow for killing horses, head shots, and other ranged. Even at PD 7 (maximum damage for this bow), it is accurate enough to hit 2 out of 3 shots on infantry at MAX range and horses have to seek obstacles to put between you once you start focusing on them. Headshots to infantry can be done on purpose at short to mid-range. (meaning if you miss it is because you didn't aim properly, not that it went flying somewhere else inside the reticule). It is also fast enough on the draw at 170 WPF that you can use it in melee range with cavalry, dancing around the horses ducking their strikes, and putting arrow after arrow into their flanks. Drop the horse and step back as your melee rush to crush the fallen cavalry player. It also gives cavalry a much more limited range to close the distance to you before you can draw again and head shot the horse.

And just like you said, you have to relearn the class every patch anyhow. I don't see how this changes.

[Lordark]

Maybe on the Tatar, no on the Long Bow. Reload is already way too long.

So you wanna totaly fuck smaller bows and buff your big bow now eh?

I dont like how you do buisness grand pappy your losing my vote if I can figure out how to reset it...

[_Tak_]

Other bow shoots much faster than Long bow which makes it useless, Soultion: Reduce speed of all other bows

[XyNox]

To make things clear, why is this suggested again ? Is it supposed to be a buff or a nerf ? What exactly requires "balance" ? Is it another "that archer shot me not fair" suggestion ? I really cant see the intention here.

Like Bulzur said, who ever likes slower, more curving projectiles more, take throwing weapons, they have faster reload and do more damage anyway.

I can only repeat my post on page 1:
Arrows are slow enough already.
Too easy to dodge already.
Too weak already.
Too many teamhits due to slow arrows/spazzing teammates already.

You may get a very rare opportunity to lob arrows over cover but Im quite confident the disadvantages lead to a huge drop in efficiency. And the reason you mainly see horn or rus bows is not because there is to little diversity, the reason is that the other bows simply are insufficient in a way you may call them bugged. Why would I use a tartar bow that is accurate but requires me to put 9 arrows in someones body when the rus can do with some arrows less and is not significantly slower ? Why would I use a longbow ( other than the looks and style ) that is powerfull but needs to be drawn for half an eternity and even then cant shoot straight, thus being the most expensive of them all ?

The right thing to do IMO is to raise stats of these bows no one uses to a point where they actually get rid of their uselesness already, and then do the balancing.

My vote is no in any way.
If its intended to be a buff: I dont think it is, it just makes useless bows even more useless, vote is no.
If its intended to be a nerf: No furhter nerfes needed. The fact that the usual range QQ (which will happen even when archery is below average efficiency-wise) has not that much presence right now is a sign of archery being the opposite of OP. vote is no.

[Rumblood]

So you wanna totaly fuck smaller bows and buff your big bow now eh?

I dont like how you do buisness grand pappy your losing my vote if I can figure out how to reset it...

We've gone over this once already with the FIRST guy who was accusing me of Bow bias.

Okay everyone, once again, what bows does GrannPappy use?

I'll just mention the fact that GrannPappy owns and uses a Tatar Bow for accuracy and a Horn Bow for Power. I don't use any 2 slot bow at all currently even though I exceed the PD requirements for them.

I mention the fact that I am using the very bows you are complaining that I am calling to have missile speed lowered and do NOT use the bow that I suggest have an increase in speed. The Rus bow would remain unchanged because it is already where it should be. Nor have I modified my arrows. They are the standard model, not any texture pack at all. It is very relevant because you certainly appear to be trying to accuse me of bias towards the Rus for some reason.

Oh, well thank you Rumblood, I appreciate you pointing that out for him.

[Rumblood]

To make things clear, why is this suggested again ? Is it supposed to be a buff or a nerf ? What exactly requires "balance" ? Is it another "that archer shot me not fair" suggestion ? I really cant see the intention here.

 And the reason you mainly see horn or rus bows is not because there is to little diversity, the reason is that the other bows simply are insufficient in a way you may call them bugged. Why would I use a tartar bow that is accurate but requires me to put 9 arrows in someones body when the rus can do with some arrows less and is not significantly slower ? Why would I use a longbow ( other than the looks and style ) that is powerfull but needs to be drawn for half an eternity and even then cant shoot straight, thus being the most expensive of them all ?

It is neither and you make the case for increasing bow diversity in your second paragraph  Thanks! 

[XyNox]

It is neither and you make the case for increasing bow diversity in your second paragraph  Thanks! 

It is neither supposed to be a nerf nor a buff. ok.

Bow diversity is not given, as numerous nerfs have divided the bows into usefull and useless bows, which pretty much lets you decide between 2, maybe 3 bows if you want to fight instead of just trolling around.

If I get this right, your suggestion aims to bring back diversity among bows by ... further nerfing the bows that are useless already ?

Your OP claims that "The advantages gained by the slower missile speed DOES outweight ...", so you are aware that there ARE disadvantages, or to put it in other words, this is some kind of nerf. Of course you also point out the advantags but it seems not many people seem to agree with these, including me.

So again:
You suggest to weaken a vital part of archery, certainly decreasing its major effeiciency, thus claiming this not to be intended to act as a nerf.

Whats the purpose ?

[Bulzur]

Bow diversity it is then !

Then please do all the work and do another completely different bow, with the stats you want, and we'll balance that one.

Thomek already said it somewhere, diversity isn't good enough, sicne there's not 2 items at roughly the same price, in the same branch (2h, polearm, etc...) that do something totally different. Only way to add diversity is to "add" weapons. Wich is work.

Stop "playing" with the current bows for the sake of variety...