Proposed bow modification to produce different functions/playstyles

[Rumblood]

This was a response to a Balance Thread. I am making it an Official Suggestion.

The Tatar bow should have its missile speed reduced by 3, the Horn Bow missile speed reduced by 2, and the LongBow should have its missile speed increased to 42-45 depending upon testing. That will give it its niche.

This will address a number of complaints around bows.

1:Because missile speed determines the arc the arrow will take, increasing the missile speed will increase the accuracy of an archer over Long ranges without increasing accuracy at shorter ranges.

2: Decreasing the missile speed for the more accurate bows will take away some of the laser pointer accuracy at short distances (and decreases even more as range increases).

Here are the changes in playstyle this will open:

Slow missile speed bows: These bows will gain more of an arc like they used to do. The advantages gained by the slower missile speed DOES outweigh the loss of the damage and accuracy when in the hands of a skilled archer.

• Arc allows you to shoot over objects. That means that I can kill xbows trying to load on the OTHER side of a rooftop. Most of those shots land on their head due to the arc for greater damage. It also allows you to shoot cavalry after they have passed behind a hill. It also allows an archer to stand behind their infantry on a bridge map and arc into the enemy. (Yes, I did all this regularly and on purpose with the slower missile speed)
• Decreased missile speed means less damage per normal shot. This will allow unarmoured cavalry to live through another shot from the hyper accurate small bows for anything from the side or behind, but will SIGNIFICANTLY increase the damage done against charging horses. Means less nerf lobby for ranged, and means an accurate archer who headshots a charging horse will no longer watch in amazement as it continues on and they die to a lance.

Fast missile speed bows: These bows will have nearly a straight line for their arc. The advantages are fairly obvious:

• Due to no drop in the arrow flight path, this will make an archer much more accurate over a longer distance. Because the reticule isn't affected, they are no better at aiming, but the arrow will land in the area to where it is launched.
• Due the the increase in missile speed, incoming infantry within a close range will no longer be able to dodge after the arrow is launched. It will be too fast and they wont have enough time to react.

Likely people will have a problem with advantage number 2 for obvious reasons, but we all know that the excessively long draw time on the Long Bow is the balancing factor. So stay back far enough until the Long Bow shoots, then rush in before he load again and you are in the "No react zone".

If they leave everything else alone, and make these changes, I think that most of the player base will appreciate the difference it will make in archery. You can see the clearly defined roles for each that it will create.

[Bulzur]

Leave rusbow unchanged hey, while nerfing tatar bow and horn bow, wich have already a pretty bad missile speed.

Slower missile speed is in no way an advantage, it means it's easier to dodge, more difficult to aim even at medium distance (i already have to do some terrible arcs) and seriously, it's impossible to play with the arc unless you're "cheating" and have modified the arrow's look by brightening it.


And seriously, i don't want to 1hit kill horses charging at me, i don't want my base damage to be nerfed again, just because of that missile speed nerf.


Definitely no.

[Rumblood]

Leave rusbow unchanged hey, while nerfing tatar bow and horn bow, wich have already a pretty bad missile speed.

Slower missile speed is in no way an advantage, it means it's easier to dodge, more difficult to aim even at medium distance (i already have to do some terrible arcs) and seriously, it's impossible to play with the arc unless you're "cheating" and have modified the arrow's look by brightening it.


And seriously, i don't want to 1hit kill horses charging at me, i don't want my base damage to be nerfed again, just because of that missile speed nerf.


Definitely no.

Well I had some responses to you, but since they would basically tell you that you aren't a decent archer, I will skip those.

I'll just mention the fact that GrannPappy owns and uses a Tatar Bow for accuracy and a Horn Bow for Power. I don't use any 2 slot bow at all currently even though I exceed the PD requirements for them.

I will also say that it is very likely that you have no understanding of how the speed bonus works.

[Bulzur]

Well I had some responses to you, but since they would basically tell you that you aren't a decent archer, I will skip those.

I'll just mention the fact that GrannPappy owns and uses a Tatar Bow for accuracy and a Horn Bow for Power. I don't use any 2 slot bow at all currently even though I exceed the PD requirements for them.

I will also say that it is very likely that you have no understanding of how the speed bonus works.

So you basically, rather than explain things to me, prefer saying that i don't know anything, that i suck, and that i should keep my mouth shut ?

And who cares about the useless fact that GrannPoppy uses two bows and that you use only 1 slots. That's totally irrelevant.

Now that's an awesome way to start a suggestion, by lowering people offering criticism. Well done dear lad. Find it unbelievable you're an admin. Then again, you're NA.

[Gisbert_of_Thuringia]

As said in the other thread, rusbow definitely needs a nerf.

I'm not sure about your suggestions, as said, would like to see some testing on it.

In my opinion less missile speed for two bows and more for one bow isn't the answer to balance the bows

[Rumblood]

So you basically, rather than explain things to me, prefer saying that i don't know anything, that i suck, and that i should keep my mouth shut ?

And who cares about the useless fact that GrannPoppy uses two bows and that you use only 1 slots. That's totally irrelevant.

Now that's an awesome way to start a suggestion, by lowering people offering criticism. Well done dear lad. Find it unbelievable you're an admin. Then again, you're NA.

My original response contains the information you need to understand how this will effect outcome in game. You clearly did not get it. Should I have quoted it?

Your response was that you are already having problems. If you are already having problems with the Tatar and Horn bow then you really really need to learn to play.

I mention the fact that I am using the very bows you are complaining that I am calling to have missile speed lowered and do NOT use the bow that I suggest have an increase in speed. The Rus bow would remain unchanged because it is already where it should be. Nor have I modified my arrows. They are the standard model, not any texture pack at all. It is very relevant because you certainly appear to be trying to accuse me of bias towards the Rus for some reason.

While you don't know anything, and do need to learn to play, I certainly didn't tell you to keep your mouth shut. Say what you will, but you will not get any sympathy over not being able to do well with a Horn Bow, even with reduced missile speed.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

It think it'd add some interesting variation between bows and what bows are used where, so I approve. Bows need some variation too, just like good old throwing.

[FRANK_THE_TANK]

Poll it up.

[Gisbert_of_Thuringia]

My original response contains the information you need to understand how this will effect outcome in game. You clearly did not get it. Should I have quoted it?

Your response was that you are already having problems. If you are already having problems with the Tatar and Horn bow then you really really need to learn to play.

I mention the fact that I am using the very bows you are complaining that I am calling to have missile speed lowered and do NOT use the bow that I suggest have an increase in speed. The Rus bow would remain unchanged because it is already where it should be. Nor have I modified my arrows. They are the standard model, not any texture pack at all. It is very relevant because you certainly appear to be trying to accuse me of bias towards the Rus for some reason.

While you don't know anything, and do need to learn to play, I certainly didn't tell you to keep your mouth shut. Say what you will, but you will not get any sympathy over not being able to do well with a Horn Bow, even with reduced missile speed.

Typical crpg forum comment....blablabla, learn to play you are an idiot. You don't know him do you? You don't know his playstyle or how long he hasn't been ingame or whatever. Maybe you guys skill differently? Maybe he has a hybridclass and that's why he got some probs with these bows cause he doesn't put all points in archery? Or maybe it's just totally different now for him than it has before cause he used to play in a certain way with the hornbow?

Jeeezzzz all these fucking arrogant people on this forum     Uuhh yeah me so good, you idiot, you learn to play.

Why don't you just start friendly discussion about that stuff? You asked for opinions, he tells you no because of certain reasons. Your only answer is that he is a noob/ an idiot. Let his comment be, discuss it in a mature way a bit and let devs decide what to do in the end or just start a poll...

[Rumblood]

I didn't call him an idiot. I didn't tell him to shut up. His "certain reasons" were that I am biased towards Rus bow and against Horn and Tatar which is demonstrably false as I explained. They are also that he is already having problems using the Horn and Tatar bow. If he is having problems using those bows, he does need to learn to play as an archer. It is a fact that the Horn Bow is the BEST bow in the game. The BEST.
My only mistake was not taking the time to explain to him why he is a bad archer. But, as I have no playtime experience with him, I can't tell you why he is a poor one. The best I could have done was to tell him that if you can't use the Horn bow, you aren't any good. I attempted to skip over, because this thread isn't about his skill as an archer. I referred him back to the OP that contained the information that explains why this isn't a nerf to the horn or tatar, which also explain why he is wrong. People just look for ways to be insulted nowadays.

Poll added Frank.

[XyNox]

Arrows fly ridiculously slow already.

This game requires good reflexes. Although the time between seeing an enemy preparing for a swing and connecting with your body is roughly, lets say 0.3 - 0.5 seconds, most people already mastered manual blocking with decent consistency.

The time between seeing an arrow flying in your direction and connecting with your body is range dependend of course, but even on short-mid ranges it climbs up to more than 0.7 - 1 second rapidly, exeeding the the 2 second mark at long ranges. Even my grandparents could dodge arrows in this game. You already see people dancing in the most stupid manner, right in front of an archers nose, because even at this range you still need to lead the target by a bit.

You already see enough teamhits due to the incedibly long arrow flight time, where you shoot at a target, and just as soon as the arrow is released some teammate pops up from behind a tree who was not there 3 seconds ago, just to catch your arrow with his head.

All this combined with the fact that you already need about 5 hits per average armored target in order to kill something with a 1 slot bow, you will probably need 15 arrows per target if you count in the misses that will be more common as you need to be even less skilled to dodge arrows after such a change.

And Yes, although I can get good scores as an archer I think we dont need a 52. archery nerf in a row just so fat melee kids wont break a sweat when being forced to rapidly press A 'n' D or wiggle the mouse around to not get hit, as the only way to get good scores as an archer already is to kill steal, to be an uber pro headshot master or to have a lvl 33-35 10PD, 10ATH, 9000 WPF archer.

I mean Im being shot at all day, most of the time by multiple ranged enemies, and I have absolutely no trouble with dodging missiles. Just open your eyes, look where hes aiming and make sure not to walk there. Do I have some magic powers ? Is it really THAT much of a problem for all the ranged QQers to be a little more aware of your suroundings so archers have to be nerfed again ? This mod is too noob friendly already.

I dont know you Rumblood as you probably are a NA only player, reading some comments in this thread I might assume that you are somewhat fame around here ( and your title of course ), but be honest I cant really tell whether you played more than 5 minutes as an archer the last few months.

[Remy]

Just open your eyes, look where hes aiming and make sure not to walk there.

Disagree.

I simply close my eyes and randomly hit my WASD keys whilst spinning my mouse around as fast as possible.

Then I watch as 95% of the archers arrows miss me a strategy that even works mounted.

[XyNox]

Disagree.

I simply close my eyes and randomly hit my WASD keys whilst spinning my mouse around as fast as possible.

Then I watch as 95% of the archers arrows miss me a strategy that even works mounted.

Im sure history books will prove they have done it exactly like this back then.

[Gisbert_of_Thuringia]

Well Rumblood, not being able to shoot with a hornbow doesn't mean you are a bad archer :/

I know I am a good archer but I can't shoot with a hornbow either. Always used warbow and changed to longbow at a certain time. Totally different to hornbow. Give me a hornbow in strat for example and I will hit/kill almost noone. Give me a longbow and I'll do fine^^

Different bows, differently to play, says nothing about your skills if you can't play with one of them.


But still as said, would like to see some testing on your proposal.

[Rumblood]

Hey Xynox, yeah GrannPappy is practically a synonym for archer.

The numbers that I suggested were actually already implemented once before(roughly), but it was across the range of bows. That change was reverted. However, during that time, I had adopted to the style and was doing better with those bows than previously after I adjusted my tactics. To be very honest, I was unhappy when the changes were reverted. It took away my ability to shoot enemies sitting somewhere to which I had no direct Line Of Sight. (over rooftops, hills, or behind friendly infantry)

So I respectfully disagree with the assertion that this would be a nerf. Trust me. When you can stand behind your friendly infantry lobbing arrows into the enemy unharrassed, your scores will certainly improve. Currently archers must shoot through gaps (risking team hits) or find a different angle (which means the friendly infantry is no longer a buffer for you)

I believe that the concept of "getting a good score" as an archer is far overvalued. If by that, you mean what the scoreboard reflects, I can agree and disagree. It only shows kills and team wins. If rolling x5 while going 0-4, yet you killed 20 horses and inflicted damage on 50 players during those 5 rounds doesn't give you a sense of satisfaction, well I can understand the complaints.
In that case, the lobby for additional stats to be shown on the scoreboard should crank itself up for some serious addressing of that topic. I myself am good with knowing that the Cavalry player who normally rolls 20-1 is going 0-1 because I shot his pony.
The problem is that you can land 20 arrows and go 15-0, or you can go 0-1. That's why some want just a raw damage display. I think it would change attitudes about specific builds and playstyles.

To be blunt, if this is implemented I almost expect to see a negative reaction from infantry who will then complain about the arrows they are being hit with that they can do nothing about.

ie: "You took away ladders and rooftop camping, but now archers can't even be reached AT ALL because they stand behind their team and if you focus on the archer you'll be melee spammed to death!"