Author Topic: The Inevitable.  (Read 5100 times)

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Offline Troyicide

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Re: The Inevitable.
« Reply #45 on: March 06, 2012, 11:57:16 pm »
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Aye, KUTT will get back their village if they want it, we prefer our coastal villages, much too cold in the east  :P Fiefs are gonna change owners many times in this war, just a matter of who is available to attack a fief. KUTT has been a great ally to the Green, and more then deserves it

prefer to hide in the back. I see

only to come out of the darkness to suckle the tit of the green poop stain cows.

Offline Visconti

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Re: The Inevitable.
« Reply #46 on: March 07, 2012, 01:01:14 am »
+1
prefer to hide in the back. I see

only to come out of the darkness to suckle the tit of the green poop stain cows.

if you want to call it hiding, sure  :D we'll be doing a great deal of "hiding" in the next few weeks
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Offline Tanken

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Re: The Inevitable.
« Reply #47 on: March 07, 2012, 05:22:45 am »
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prefer to hide in the back. I see

only to come out of the darkness to suckle the tit of the green poop stain cows.


I wouldn't call it hiding so much as being semi-sheltered during a recovery phase. You don't leave a man that was shot down with his platoon on the battlefield only to risk the chance of being shut down even more.
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Offline FRANK_THE_TANK

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Re: The Inevitable.
« Reply #48 on: March 07, 2012, 08:13:20 am »
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Would you people all stop ruining my thread. I was trying to have a discussion about pike tactics, well tactics in general really and its devolved into a pissing contest. The funny thing is the wind changed and you've all lost because your all now covered in piss.
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Offline Tanken

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Re: The Inevitable.
« Reply #49 on: March 07, 2012, 08:27:25 am »
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Pike Tactics, mmmyesss.

To Win: Do like KUTT
To Lose: Do like Hospitaller.


I'm joooooooooooooooooooooking.

For real though, you need to have a diverse array of infantry in Strategus. Pikes need to be a big part of that infantry unit. The best way to do this is how we designate followers in KUTT.

Pike leads
Shielders Follow Pike
2-Handers Follow Shielders and Pikes
Archers cover Flanks
Hoplites cover rear


You want a formation like this when moving...
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And when attacking you want...
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You want your horsemen to follow the group and support as needed and then if they are heavily armored and heavy horsemen, they can assist the pikes a great deal by knocking down enemy infantry.
Notice that shielders need to step in front of Pikes and KEEP THEIR SHIELDS UP. They are your defensive line, Pikes the Quarterbacks, and if need be, you have 2handers as your Running Backs. Archers are wide-receivers, they need to pick off the infantry and start calling out shit early on.





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Offline FRANK_THE_TANK

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Re: The Inevitable.
« Reply #50 on: March 07, 2012, 10:49:09 am »
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Your American football analogies mean nothing to me :S Couch it in Rugby terms and we might get some where.
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Offline Zerran

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Re: The Inevitable.
« Reply #51 on: March 07, 2012, 06:40:24 pm »
+2
Every class has weaknesses and strengths, you need a variety of different classes on the field in order for them to cover one anothers' weaknesses and bolster their strengths.

2H do well in chaotic situations, as they tend to be the most well-rounded weapons (mauls aside), and so have few weaknesses on their own, but because of this they also have few real strengths that they can lend in group fights.

Mauls obviously have the very slow speed and very short reach, but hit extremely hard and have the crushthrough.

"dueling" polearms are similar to 2H in that they have few weaknesses, however they tend to have more utility roles (shieldbreaking being one of the most prevalent)

2 directional polearms tend to have long reach and extremely high damage, but lack sideswings, and often have poor overheads. Due to this they often have more difficulty than 2H in dueling situations, but have more use in a team situation. Halberds and bills also tend to be extremely good support for pikeman due to their high damage overhead.

Hoplites have much more range and ability to survive in close quarters than standard 2D polearms, but lose a lot of the damage potential and speed, so generally are better off as pure utility. (stopping cav, protection from archers, etc) They have very very little ability to duel, and not nearly the ability to harass as a 1D polearm. but they can fill far more roles than any other class.

longspears are far better at dealing with cav than pikes, and are (for most people) better for dueling, but lack a lot of the potential in groups due to their inability to safely curve around moving teammates.

Pikes are the ultimate support melee weapon, due to their incredibly long reach and ability to curve around teammates, however in order to get this they are also the slowest melee weapon (LoC excluded due to inability to thrust) and have unbalanced combined with this, so their thrust stun is an absolute pain in the ass for the user. Additionally they have only 1 attack direction, so any fool who knows to block down (5% of the population it seems :P) will have little difficulty beating them in 1v1 unless the pike user has a ton of experience in dealing with 1v1 situations. Not to mention that the 300 length slows them down by a LOT, and their thrust only attacks makes guessing their movements a piece of cake for ranged.

It seems a lot of people really undervalue how excellent ranged can be at dealing with tight formations, such as pike walls. In battle shielders tend to run around with very tough shields, so breaking them with archer fire isn't really an option, in strat however shields tend to be much much weaker. Ranged in strat is an incredibly effective counter to heavily melee focused formations.

Cav are useful for picking off unaware enemies, taking out archers, and dealing with lone players, as everyone knows. What I would say, personally, they are even more useful for is simply distraction. One cav running around behind an enemy formation is enough to break their support's concentration such that their melee can break through, more cav is of course even better for this.

Every tactic, every class, every plan, every strategy has a weakness. It's not up to the devs to nerf something because you didn't want to examine your enemy's strategy and find this weakness. (I mean this for more than just the pike formations, and I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular, so don't go getting defensive.  :wink:) If there is a gamebreaking imbalance, as there used to be with the longspear and pike, THEN it is up to the devs to fix it, currently I would personally say the game is quite well balanced.

Oh, and I'm writing this after having stayed up all night played ME3, so if I said something incredibly offensive or stupid, I apologize, I'm about to fall asleep at my keyboard.  :lol:
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Offline Tibe

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Re: The Inevitable.
« Reply #52 on: March 07, 2012, 07:13:55 pm »
+1
Ive said it before.... war is simply put a game of rock-paper-scissors. Everything has a counter. Have pikes alone and later get killed by ranged or shielders. Have ranged alone and get killed by shielders or cav....etc etc etc. A bigger pair of scissors can cut paper and can cut smaller scissors...but it still gets beaten to death by a rock...and who later gets coverd by paper. :mrgreen:

One class alone is suicide. Ive learned that from Total War games, where I keep nerfing archer armies only to later get massacred by cav or some infantry I did not see flanking me. :)

Offline CrazyCracka420

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Re: The Inevitable.
« Reply #53 on: March 07, 2012, 08:03:02 pm »
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Every tactic, every class, every plan, every strategy has a weakness. It's not up to the devs to nerf something because you didn't want to examine your enemy's strategy and find this weakness. (I mean this for more than just the pike formations, and I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular, so don't go getting defensive.  :wink:) If there is a gamebreaking imbalance, as there used to be with the longspear and pike, THEN it is up to the devs to fix it, currently I would personally say the game is quite well balanced.

Totally agree.  I'd also say the game is pretty well balanced and that the dev's should focus their energy on improving the game, and making strategus work.  Nothing in my opinion is so game breaking or unbalanced that it needs to be nerfed (or needs something buffed to counter it).  I've been saying the same thing for a while now, everything has a counter.  It's up to the players (and commanders) to take advantage of their strengths, and to try and exploit their enemies weaknesses. 

tl; dr version: stop nerfing shit for the ADD/WoW generation of gamer.
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Offline Rikthor

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Re: The Inevitable.
« Reply #54 on: March 07, 2012, 09:09:39 pm »
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Totally agree.  I'd also say the game is pretty well balanced and that the dev's should focus their energy on improving the game, and making strategus work.  Nothing in my opinion is so game breaking or unbalanced that it needs to be nerfed (or needs something buffed to counter it).  I've been saying the same thing for a while now, everything has a counter.  It's up to the players (and commanders) to take advantage of their strengths, and to try and exploit their enemies weaknesses. 

tl; dr version: stop nerfing shit for the ADD/WoW generation of gamer.

I agree for the most part. Fixing bugs that have been around since strat 2.0 sure would be nice...
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Offline Tibe

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Re: The Inevitable.
« Reply #55 on: March 08, 2012, 06:03:20 am »
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Can someone explain to me whats the point of going 2h when polearms do a way better job at the same thing?I know alot of people (including myself) use 2h. I just use it, cause I feel like a proper warrior with it. But the polearm does a better job. Its longer, does more dam, speed is about the same and most of em break shields. So why is 2h in general still existant :?:

Offline Tanken

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Re: The Inevitable.
« Reply #56 on: March 08, 2012, 06:12:19 am »
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Battle is good for polearms, 2handers are just a very balanced weapon all the way around and can work closer quarters than polearms and are also faster for dueling.
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Re: The Inevitable.
« Reply #57 on: March 08, 2012, 06:18:45 am »
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Can someone explain to me whats the point of going 2h when polearms do a way better job at the same thing?I know alot of people (including myself) use 2h. I just use it, cause I feel like a proper warrior with it. But the polearm does a better job. Its longer, does more dam, speed is about the same and most of em break shields. So why is 2h in general still existant :?:

Two hand is useful in strat mainly as support.  It seems to have specific roles where it is useful, such as a counter-charge where they can quickly hit the enemy lines.  In this scenario, the longer polearms have a disadvantage due to the cluster of people and the short range that they now have to fight in.  With shield support and poles, 2 handers can really smash some people during the counter-charge.

Hosp has always had a lot of two hand heavy infantry and shields, but few poles.  In these recent battles we have learned that a balanced, versatile force seems to fair best.  As Tank burner showed, a good spear line will benefit from shielders, who then benefit from two hand and archer support.  The key is getting all the various classes to work together properly.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 06:20:25 am by Peppovitch »

Offline FRANK_THE_TANK

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Re: The Inevitable.
« Reply #58 on: March 08, 2012, 06:34:38 am »
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Good old OP team work, thankfully it was nerfed by the human race.

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Offline Visconti

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Re: The Inevitable.
« Reply #59 on: March 08, 2012, 07:40:43 am »
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Can someone explain to me whats the point of going 2h when polearms do a way better job at the same thing?I know alot of people (including myself) use 2h. I just use it, cause I feel like a proper warrior with it. But the polearm does a better job. Its longer, does more dam, speed is about the same and most of em break shields. So why is 2h in general still existant :?:

2hs are generally better in melee,  their swings actually get quite a bit of bonus reach compared to a polearm, they also have much better animations. Polearms are just alot more versatile, as in anyone with polearm proficiency can pick up a pike, or a halberd etc, and having a bonus against shields, as well as being able to rear up horses.
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