History and Politics

[Sultan Eren]

If only we start equal i may accept capitalism. But most of the wealthy are already rich when they born. There's a few stories outta billions of people selling lemon to a billionaire.

Actually my point is about the system itself and the world's total wealth. We can give every people in the world two houses two cars two tvs two computers using rich's money. But no. They have to earn it by themselves. But how? They have no capital. If everyone has capital then there's no consumer no worker. System itself needs poor. People in 3rd world countries or developing countries work over 30 years and still have nothing still housing on rental. Yes! The capitalist winning much much much more and the worker gets only a liveable salary. Because they need to have consumers, workers. So yes every other factory makes class difference more certain. That means every new capitalist making new people slave, creating more poor. This will continue until there's no middle class. Once they defeat it they can declare their own kingdoms.

I am just saying that there's 100 apple in world and 100 people. 1 person is beast rich got 80 apples and 99 people got 20 apples. This is what is happening right now and this is not a joke. Day by day they are getting more apples since they profit a lot, expenditure less. They heritage; their house do not lose anything.

Let's just everyone gets 1 apple. This is not freedom stealing. This is freedom giving to %99.

[roymorrison]

Wow you've managed to simplify global economics into everybody having 1 apple.  If only it were that easy.  By the way, who owns the apple tree in your model?

If I'm the baddest ass apple picker on planet Earth, at the end of the day, I will have more apples than someone who sucks at picking apples, or someone who picks no apples at all.
What you're saying is that despite how good I am at picking apples, I should be forced to have the same amount of apples as everybody else?  Why would I pick apples then, if no matter what amount of apple picking I do, I will always end up with the same amount.

Sorry, your system sucks.  I don't want to be given a million dollars of rich peoples money, only to go to the store and find that everything costs a million dollars.  You should look up "inflation".

[Sultan Eren]

Ok I respect your point of view but i still think this is unfair and it shouldn't exist. Only a equal world would be more beautiful less sinful, peaceful i believe. This is not my model this is the reality. But if i could choose the tree owner i would say God.

I am 3rd grade student in economic faculty so i know what i'm talking about so don't worry.

[roymorrison]

So basically your system requires god to function.

Let me know how that works out for you.

[Pdogg5954]

Communism
The apple tree is owned by the workers, labored upon by the workers, and in turn the fruits go to the workers.

Capitalism
The apple tree is owned by the investors, labored upon by the workers, and the fruits go to the investors. In a fully-fledged, unregulated capitalist economy there is no minimum wage, only a "living" wage. The workers are given enough apple to feed and sustain themselves but never enough apple to allow them to become anything other than a worker.

America is obviously not as extreme as either of these two, but neither is China nor was the USSR. There has never been a state that was as Communist as above, but there have been and still are states as capitalist as the example.

@roymorrison, of course you personally aren't responsible for poverty or hunger, but what is?  [sarcasm]clearly it must be that they are lazy, they have no initiative or drive or are stupid[/sarcasm]. You aren't at fault but neither are they.

Also, people constantly point to the failure/poverty of socialist states like the USSR, North Korea, Vietnam, Cuba, China but what of the poverty of capitalist states in Latin America, Africa, and Asia?

[Thomek]

I'm happy the discussion is still quite civilized! :-D

Anyway, what I'm referring to is something that already exists in america, and also in most other countries.

It's called inheritance tax, or "estate tax". Actually, many rich people like bill gates etc are for increasing this kind of taxation.
(couldn't find the exact article about Gates, but here are some other rich proponents)
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/bring-back-the-estate-tax-some-rich-americans-say-2010-07-21

My basic point is that I'm not at all for communism. Studying 4 years in Poland now, and I see every day the after-shocks of it in society and psychology of people.

What I'm saying is that waste is waste, and large amounts of resources should be handled by competent people. Not being wasted, even if the owners want to waste it like many heirs do. (Either by bad/incompetent investment, or extreme luxury) It's important to liberate those resources so the smartest/best applepickers can get to them.

Also that everyone should have an EQUAL/VERY DECENT START in their life should be ensured by society. What people do after their childhood and good basic education is their own responsibility.

The problem today is that money breeds money, and more and more of the worlds resources gets on fewer and fewer hands. Did you know 60% of the worlds wealth belongs to 1% of the worlds population?

(And I do know about inflation and if everyone had a million dollars bread would cost 10.000$ etc etc..  ITS NOT THAT SIMPLE. Take a huge luxury yacht. The resources going into building that thing, ultimately satisfying the vain of a few people, could easily go into securing a  much better chance at life for 100 kids, that would use their life paying taxes in stead of being in jail.)

Justice is not only "What mine is mine", it's also giving every individual an equal start.

[roymorrison]

So basically you want to make everybody equal at the expense of the well off.  What then?  What is my motivation to do anything?  It's all just given to me anyways.  Why should I strive to be the best at something if it doesn't matter since I'm equal to the worst.

edit:  also the yacht to which you keep referring is built by somebody, the resources are acquired and purchased by somebody, etc. etc.  I don't just burn a million dollars and a yacht magically appears.  Jobs and careers go into the creation of that yacht.  So while 100 starving little kids sucks, it sucks less than thousands of people who are now unemployed because nobody is allowed to produce luxury anything anymore.

You just created a whole load of starving kids.  Good thing you fed those 100.

[Thomek]

you are obviously not reading what I'm writing.

In this system I'm proposing, your motivation (assuming you are middle class) would actually increase, as your chances of getting a piece of the cake are much much higher, since the big resources would be much more dynamic and change hands more often.

I do not want to make everyone equal. I want everyone to have an equal chance, what they do after they got that FAIR chance they must be responsible for themselves. The money and state of your parents (and in a larger scale country) should not decide what you can be.

(Which it statistically does to a very large degree. If you, Roymorrison were born to some super-rich family you would most likely be out playing tennis with the girls down at the club, rather than discussing with me here lol..  Your dad would secure you a trainee position at his friends company and I'm sure everything would be alright with you. Of course, you can also become super-rich. It's not against the law or anything, it's just that the odds are not with you.)

My point is, capitalism should be survival of the fittest, not survival of the ones who were born rich.. Get it?

And I'm not talking about "getting" the ones who worked hard for their kids education. I'm talking about getting the huge dynasties controlling most of the resources on this planet.

(And of course the yacht money goes back into the system and is not all waste.. But, what if that money went into building a new school in stead. Still the architects and the carpenters and the painters would make a nice living from it. Except what they built went into something useful.)

[Pdogg5954]

This wouldn't truly allow everyone an equal opportunity. Wealthy families pass on benefits to their children through superior education, power, prestige, contacts, ect.

I think your view concerning a rich family is slightly jaded to be honest.