Author Topic: Pikes & longspear need to be adjusted...  (Read 5988 times)

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Offline Zanze

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Re: Pikes & longspear need to be adjusted...
« Reply #60 on: March 07, 2012, 04:46:34 pm »
-1
Quote

I could go on forever but dont use realism as the basis for why a weapon should or should not be tweaked. This is a game, the mechanics are NOT real, and it needs to be balanced based on what is happening IN GAME.

Good! We agree we are in the game balance thread!
Quote
1v1 a pike is pretty crappy. However, I dont know anyone that will engage 1v1 with a pike. Most of them have high enough athletics they will run until they find a teamate, and can take massive advantage of run/jump lolspin. They are used in swarms, where you cant just sit there and down block or your head will be cut off by the guy next to him. They have such a massive range, if they are anything but solo you dont have much of a chance to engage them.
Massive advantage? Downblock. Seriously, only idiots get hit by a lolspin more than once or twice. Anything that stops your movement during a spin means death, and the main reason to spin is to polestun the attacker so they can return to their teammates.

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They can be swung around and through walls, as well as around and through your/their own teamates. It can take such a huge advantage of the faulty mechanics in this game, I really feel it needs to be nerfed.  There is no other weapon other than the long spear that can perform such feats.

Hitting through teammates is limited to the pike. It has no hit box directly in front of the wielder. Swinging around walls? Any weapon with around 150ish reach(including the reach gained or loss from stabbing) can easily stab into a space and drag it through the wall into you. Don't believe me? Hug a door in siege while they stab it, watch how easily a danish or some other 2h sword can hit you with a thrust.

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I personally feel this weapon encourages poor and dishonorable play and needs to be heavily re-evaluated.
You mean teamwork? Just in case you cite 1v1's, downblock. Suddenly, you can never die.

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*50m is max effective range for pistols. Most ranges dont even have 50m pistol targets, but you could go to the rifle range. Sure you can shoot and with blind luck hit something farther. An AK going 1500m accurately?? The bullet tumbles and fans as it flies, so good luck with that. it is possible but still HIGHLY unlikely.

Don't know where this came from...but last I checked, you and I agreed this thread was dedicated to game balance. Where did this come from and what does it have to do with long spears and pikes?

Offline Memento_Mori

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Re: Pikes & longspear need to be adjusted...
« Reply #61 on: March 07, 2012, 04:52:36 pm »
+1
Hitting through teammates is limited to the pike.

You can hit through team mates with a great sword stab, long spear, pretty much any weapon with a stab and long enough weapon length to take advantage of the game mechanics. This ability is not just limited to the pike, though the pike can make good use of it due to it's extreme length.


Down block and you will never die, but you will NEVER kill that pike guy with your down block. On my pure str piker I hit people while they're trying to hit me, only idiot pikers purposely stun themselves by attacking a down block/shield.

All in all I don't think it needs a nerf, there are many things it excels at but if you don't have a team coordinating with you all of it's strengths are lost and replaced with uselessness.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 09:16:02 pm by Memento_Mori »

Offline Joker86

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Re: Pikes & longspear need to be adjusted...
« Reply #62 on: March 07, 2012, 06:59:16 pm »
+2
I think the first problem of your post is the moment you realized you think (!) that pikes are OP. It was against a clan, and they used masses of pikes. Clan members tend to play together, they are in teamspeak, and unlike in cRPG in strategus they fight to win, not to have fun/mess around.

cRPG has the weird behaviour, that if a class is dominating in a team, the team will win the fight more likely. I don't know where this comes from, and I have no theory how this could work, but as soon as a team has superiority concerning cavalry, archers or heavy infantry, it will win. This is what I observed in cRPG, at least. I don't know how much this applies to a strategus battle, but I wanted to have it mentioned.

Then, if we want to discuss this further, we need to agree on one important thing: noone is allowed to ever mention how "it used to be in history", because this is completely irrelevant if you want to achieve some balance. Warfare in history never tried to be balanced, so it is a very poor base for creating a fair game. It was a rock-paper-scissors-shotgun system, where everyone tried to be the shotgun. For obvious reasons.

That said, I beg you to look at the whole matter from the point of view of a pikeman. Imagine you choose to be one, to play cRPG. Pretty much everyone on the enemy team will prioritize you as a target, either because you are an easy one (ranged, infantry) or a dangerous one (cavalry, infantry). If a cavalryman catches you and a few more of your teammates turning your back to him, you can be sure he will attack you first, if he's smart. If an enemy infantryman is fighting against you and your infantry teammate, he will try to kill you first before trying to kill your mate.

If you get seperated somehow (which happens more easily and frequently than you might think - just follow a good player, and when he dies and you turn around you see the rest of your team that used to be behind you is gone somewhere else), and you encounter an enemy who is not cavalry, you will die. If the cavalry is smart and dismounts before engaging you, you will die as well.

The only thing you can do is to stand in the second line and stab or at least annoy enemies. That's all. Pikeman gameplay is rather plain, and, as most important insight:

No other class is more dependant on other people than pikemen.


Sure, they are great as supporter, but they are supposed to, because there is nothing else left for them. I don't know how it's about you, but most people do NOT prefer to be dependant on other people that much, and if I take a look at the average cRPG player that's damn smart.

A pikeman needs 3 slots for his weapon, no other class besides long maul crushthrough infantry needs 3 slots for one piece of equipment! The only viable backup weapon left is a) a quarterstaff or b) buckler + 1hd weapon (which both need skill/WPF points to be effective).

The most frequent (and dumbest, imho) argument against "nerf ranged spam"-cries was "get a shield", but you are the ONLY class for which this argument doesn't apply, because if you switch to your shield you drop your pike. Because it's not only 3 slot, it's also unsheathable. So you can't switch to a shield while approaching the enemy, like 2hd or halberd infantry.

Then you need to be aware of the fact that a pike is unbalanced. So if you do a mistake you are dead most likely. Or you teamhit a comrade although you hammer on RMB like mad.

And finally I would beg you to equip a pike and try to fight on a steep hill or a rooftop against an enemy. You will be literally unable to attack, as soon as you release your blow your character will do "HNGH", the attack animation will stop before it even started, and you won't be able to block for a second. It's tremendous fun.

We agree on one point though: jump-lolstabs are crap. But not because it's OP or something like that, I just hate how retarded it looks, so I don't use it (and to be honest, I didn't notice any difference in staying on ground or jumping. If anything, I think your damage is higher while staying on ground). I would like to deactivate any attacking while jumping, I hate the looks. People can attack cavalry from the ground almost as effectively.

What I would like to have though is a second attack direction for spear like weapons, both one and two handed. It would make pikemen and especially the poor hoplites more viable. Of course this would change the look of melee completely, with having about 50% spear weapons, and always having 2 lines of combat, but I think game depth would increase, simultanously with the importancy of shieldmen. 2 hd wouldn't be the main infantry class any more. More shieldmen would decrease the general effectivity of ranged fighters, another big problem in cRPG, and the increased amount of spears would make life harder for cav, which is still able to amass a lot of easy, skill-less kills. In short: it would buff infantry again.
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Diomedes

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Re: Pikes & longspear need to be adjusted...
« Reply #63 on: March 07, 2012, 11:07:06 pm »
+2
Pikes are handicapped 1v1 and against ranged attacks but are quite strong when supporting allies or fighting cavalry.  Just like any weapon-type, pikes have their strengths and weaknesses.  If they're killing you disproportionately then you're likely fighting them when they're in their more advantageous environments.

Mount&Blade combat is like rock paper scissors, except with more hand gestures than a deaf person in an argument.

Offline Mlekce

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Re: Pikes & longspear need to be adjusted...
« Reply #64 on: March 08, 2012, 02:21:39 pm »
-2
i only hate when i am stopped with my armored pony,and some my old friend come and hit my pony once and kill it even if i don't move. So pike removes 70% health to my armored pony. I realy hate pikers,but i use it when i fight in strat. I like to stab unaware infrantery. So side stabs with pike should deal less dmg to armored ponies,arrows too.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 02:22:55 pm by Mlekce »

Offline Thomek

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Re: Pikes & longspear need to be adjusted...
« Reply #65 on: March 08, 2012, 07:20:08 pm »
+1
Joker.. I'm suffering from same illness as you with writing too long posts. Anyhow.. Try to write shorter.. No one can be assed to read anything in that wall of text.
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Offline Zlisch_The_Butcher

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Re: Pikes & longspear need to be adjusted...
« Reply #66 on: March 08, 2012, 07:24:06 pm »
0
i only hate when i am stopped with my armored pony,and some my old friend come and hit my pony once and kill it even if i don't move. So pike removes 70% health to my armored pony. I realy hate pikers,but i use it when i fight in strat. I like to stab unaware infrantery. So side stabs with pike should deal less dmg to armored ponies,arrows too.
So... you're saying, pike is ok if I'm not the one fighting it.
Excuse me, but that is fucking stupid.

BTW: Thomek, even I make longer posts than you, your only illness is lack of ban-polls being thrown upon you, you gotta be more like Chlorine.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 07:25:40 pm by Zlisch_The_Butcher »
1H stab is the fastest, strongest and longest 1H animation. There's no reason NOT to use it in all instances. I don't know if it's OP, but it's boring. 1H used to be fun because you had a fast (left), long (right) and the most devastating attack (stab) and had to choose the best attack for each occasion.

Offline Joker86

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Re: Pikes & longspear need to be adjusted...
« Reply #67 on: March 08, 2012, 07:45:14 pm »
0
Joker.. I'm suffering from same illness as you with writing too long posts. Anyhow.. Try to write shorter.. No one can be assed to read anything in that wall of text.

(click to show/hide)

- the observation the OP made was against a clan in a strategus battle about a fief (= high performance, teamspeak, better organisation, no fooling around and casual playing like in cRPG, perhaps you didn't lose to their pikes but to their better skill?), of COURSE the performance would be rather good. Ask yourself what would happen if they were all cavalry or archers.

- in cRPG, unlike other games, a high concentration of a class in one team usually is an advantage. In other games you need a good mixture, in cRPG you don't. I don't know why and how, but that's why I observed. Perhaps it has to do with the autobalancer and the fact that the opposing team usually ends up pretty balanced, anyway.

- history is a bad base to balance things, because warfare in history never was (and never will be) fair. So it doesn't matter how it is/was in reality. Just don't mention it at all.

- pikemen are a high priority target for almost every enemy, for different reasons. Either because it's an easy target (majority of all cases) or because it is a dangerous target (way more seldom)

- 2 + 2 = 4. a²+b²=c². A single pikeman is a dead pikeman. E=mc². 

- the entire gameplay of pikemen is to wait behind other players and try to stab/annoy enemies, which is rather plain.

- pikes have 3 slots, the only viable backup weapons are a quarterstaff (meh) or a buckler + 1hd (which need skill and WPF points).

- pikemen can't use a shield at all to approach archers safely, because the pike is unsheathable. They would drop it when switching to a shield.

- pikes are one of the slowest weapons ingame, PLUS they are unbalanced. Make a mistake and you hit a teammate in the best case (!!!), or you die in the worst case.

- pikes are worthless on uneven ground. You simply can't attack with them.

No other class is more dependant on other people than pikemen.

Take all these points into concern and ask yourself again, if you really want to further nerf the weapon.

I agree jumpstabs should go, but not because they were OP (they are not, I don't even use them), but because I hate the look. Just give a second attack direction to spears and pikes both 1hd and 2hd, some kind of overhead stab. I think gameplay would benefit from it. And reducing the turning speed while performing a stab could make melee more... interesting. No more twist stabs, I hate them too.  :mad:
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Thomek

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Re: Pikes & longspear need to be adjusted...
« Reply #68 on: March 08, 2012, 10:32:33 pm »
0
hehe.. thanks.

It didn't mean anything bad.. Just hinting that you should take a look at your writing. You write too long posts dammit! (My writing is terrible as well.. I just have less to say!)

Anyway, back on topic.

I like pikes. (They force both the piker and the enemies to think and teamwork a bit. People should be a little bit careful when engaging a pikeman + one or more other infantry in a group.)

Choosing when and how to engage is also skills.. I like powerful combos resulting from teamwork.

And I think the top long 2h and polearms are too flexible all rounders. Need nerf. Everyone is using them, see my other ragethread.

Also, nerf cav. (Pondering about writing a rageful suggestion that they should not be able to headshot with their lances, or at least get the lance damage nerfed, or their speed bonus.. but that will be in time.)

=crpg fixed.

(Ranged is OK atm)
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Offline Leshma

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Re: Pikes & longspear need to be adjusted...
« Reply #69 on: March 08, 2012, 10:41:19 pm »
0
What if someone wants to work alone. You can't impose formations and teamplay on everyone...

There are scouts, rogues, assassins, spies, rangers, decoys,ninjas. You know those ninjas from 80s B movies, where one and the only skilled ninja beats up whole group of ninjas using teamplay :wink:

Offline Joker86

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Re: Pikes & longspear need to be adjusted...
« Reply #70 on: March 08, 2012, 11:37:52 pm »
-1
And I think the top long 2h and polearms are too flexible all rounders. Need nerf. Everyone is using them, see my other ragethread.

Also, nerf cav. (Pondering about writing a rageful suggestion that they should not be able to headshot with their lances, or at least get the lance damage nerfed, or their speed bonus.. but that will be in time.)

=crpg fixed.

(Ranged is OK atm)

I wrote it already in my "Dear Devs..."-topic:

Nerfing on itself won't help anything at this point of game development. You are stuck in the "My chair is wiggling. Two legs are too short, in need to saw a bit off them to make everything even again."-thinking, Thomek. And we all know, there the story with the wiggling chair and the saw ends.  :wink:

The item stats are not the problem, the average infantry player is.

Cavalry is not OP at all. If anything, I would lower the upkeep cost for horses, but perhaps increase their difficulty by 1 or so.

The problem of cav seeming OP is:

- players not CONSTANTLY, from spawning at the beginning of a round till the equipment (& teamkill) screen at the end of the round, being aware of cavalry
- infantry not sticking together, with pikemen/spearmen at the flanks and back of the formation (no line formation, I am talking about the blob)
- player listening to music while playing. I don't have any background sounds while playing, except for the fighting sounds (shouts, weapons, hits, HORSE TRAMPLING). I think this is one of the biggest and simultaneously one of the most difficult, if not impossible to solve problems.
- people thinking that teamplay is boring, lame, and less fun than casual suicide runs. They don't realize that one doesn't exclude the other. Poor bastards.

And concerning the problem of too many swung polearms (I am still looking for a name for the "halberd" class)/ two handers: I wouldn't look for a solution basing on nerfs. Rather buff something. My idea would be to give spear and pike weapons a second overhead stab (as tradeoff you remove melee attacks while jumping (which also makes up for the increased amount of spears from the point of view of cav), and you drastically lower the turning speed while being in the stab animation of any weapon. I HATE jump stabs/slashes and spin stabs). It's identical to the normal stab, but you need to block upwards. This means you can't approach three spearmen safely by blocking down any more. The weapons would become more viable, which would result in an increased number of spear weapons. Melee would be fought in two lines: the front line and the support line with spears and pikes. With two stab directions for spear weapons it would become more difficult to survive in the front line with two handed weapons, which would (hopefully) result in a lower amount of two handed weapons and an increased amount of 1hd+shield. Which would nerf ranged a bit again, which is not a bad thing (you can buff their stats a bit if this nerf is too severe), but buff cavalry again which will suffer heavily from the high amount of spears in the teams.

You see? A single change can shift things heavily, and no one needs to cry about worse stats of his heirloomed items. If anything, buffs could be applied again. Perhaps I will create a topic about this suggestion.

Edit: a SHORT topic, of course  :wink:
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 11:43:34 pm by Joker86 »
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Okkam

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Re: Pikes & longspear need to be adjusted...
« Reply #71 on: March 09, 2012, 12:25:41 am »
0
pike reach with two type of frontal attack, current broken sweetspot mechanics and instastab?

Offline Joker86

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Re: Pikes & longspear need to be adjusted...
« Reply #72 on: March 09, 2012, 12:30:02 am »
0
pike reach with two type of frontal attack, current broken sweetspot mechanics and instastab and slower turning speed, no jump stabs, three slots, unsheathable, unbalanced?

Fixed that for you.

Yes.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 12:31:36 am by Joker86 »
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Crazyi

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Re: Pikes & longspear need to be adjusted...
« Reply #73 on: March 09, 2012, 05:23:42 am »
0
Now this is something I really doubt.  Have you ever bothered reading some medal of honor citations?  Dudes take liek 30 bullets, have limbs blown away, and maintain the presence of mind to slaughter dozens of chocolate chip cookies single handedly while coordinating troop movements and saving their men.  An arrow or xbow bolt causes significantly less trauma and damage then bullets do.  Nerf ranged.

You need to do some research on newtons, area, and impact damage. You clearly have no idea what you talking about. I like physics and currently in college for it(far from being done, however I do know enough). A longbow would fuck your world up with a 100lb draw weight(Max estimated 200lb on longbow). Bullets pierece the body, but cause relatively little impact damage due to size until you start getting into larger rounds(ie 50 cal sniper that can cut a man in half). If you are shot 30 times and still living/moving, it isnt a big round. Arrows/crossbows and bullets are no where near close to the same type of damage.

I said Pike 1v1 is shit. No Pikeman will EVER engage 1v1 unles the rest of his team died and he has no choice. So that argument is void. Anyone without a shield is an archer target, derp. You are correct down block is easy. However, it is completely unmanageble when there are multiple enemies, and a guy can stab you from off the screen with his 300 reach weapon. They can also look like they are stabbing some one else far away and they turn and you are dead. If you are just holding down block and dont die from his teamate, they are doing something wrong.  No where in my post did I say other weapons are not capable of taking advantage of the mechanics, but the longer the weapon is the more it can abuse the system. I dont feel you should be ghosting 15foot pikes through solid objects and players. You still cant swing a sword through a ally as far as im aware. I started this game almost a year ago, and Pikes werent that common. Nearly 1/4 of the teams now are Pikes when I returned. Rise in popularity probably means people feel it is strong. I'm going pole anyways so I can have fun with it too, but I personally wish it wasnt there.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 06:15:56 am by Crazyi »

Offline Crazyi

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Re: Pikes & longspear need to be adjusted...
« Reply #74 on: March 09, 2012, 05:29:10 am »
+1
Was meaning to modify my post, not quote myself. I wins