Pikes & longspear need to be adjusted...

[okiN]

Yes when i think of troops and nations that dominated the medival battlefields, i think of the Swiss and there pikemen, gaurding the Pope in their fancy uniforms, they did such a good job. I dont think about the English long bowmen or the French knights that actually dominated the battlefield.

Are you really this ignorant? Why do you think Swiss Guards began to be employed by both kings and the Pope in the first place? It's because the Swiss pikemen had demonstrated their prowess in battle over several decades, becoming some of the most famous mercenaries in all of Europe. The ingrained popular image of English longbowmen against French knights comes from the high middle ages, it was really only at the start of the late medieval period that the effectiveness of pike formations was rediscovered and they became an integral part of every nation's armies. This lasted until firearms and artillery became common enough to be used in battle on a large scale.

Then again, this information is probably wasted on you, since you sound like you get most of your history from movies and video games.

And just in case you're tempted to argue that this mod is only focused on the high middle ages -- it's not, cRPG includes a wide range of equipment from the early middle ages to the beginning of the early modern era.

[Xol!]

I don't like how effective pikes are as melee support right now, just because they greatly outpace almost every other option in terms of support-style play.  It's not so much a matter of them being used incorrectly, it's just that they're very, very effective, which unfortunately gives the class too much sway over the outcome of the battle.

Right now a pikeman plays like a shotgun-style crossbowman that can block with his crossbow, shoot through his teammates, curve his bolt in midair, stop a charging horse, and reload almost instantly.  Granted, this comes at the cost of having your bolts blocked by a downblock, but even that becomes a strength.  The threat of getting stabbed forces enemy melee players nearby to choose between holding downblocks (taking hits from your teammates) and blocking your teammates (taking your stabs).

All of this said, I still don't think they should be nerfed, per se.  They've been hit patch after patch, and they're still tremendously useful.  Nerfing has proven to be ineffective.  Instead they need to be reworked somehow, to bring their supporting power to a level that's in-line with other support classes.  If I knew how, I'd have made a thread awhile ago, but for now stat nerfs aren't the answer.  All it does is piss off pikemen, rather than balancing their effectiveness in battle.  Taking away overheads through teammates was a good start, but changes to speed, damage, etc., aren't going to change how they weapon is played.

[Lemmy_Winks]

I don't like how effective pikes are as melee support right now, just because they greatly outpace almost every other option in terms of support-style play.  It's not so much a matter of them being used incorrectly, it's just that they're very, very effective, which unfortunately gives the class too much sway over the outcome of the battle.

Right now a pikeman plays like a shotgun-style crossbowman that can block with his crossbow, shoot through his teammates, curve his bolt in midair, stop a charging horse, and reload almost instantly.  Granted, this comes at the cost of having your bolts blocked by a downblock, but even that becomes a strength.  The threat of getting stabbed forces enemy melee players nearby to choose between holding downblocks (taking hits from your teammates) and blocking your teammates (taking your stabs).

All of this said, I still don't think they should be nerfed, per se.  They've been hit patch after patch, and they're still tremendously useful.  Nerfing has proven to be ineffective.  Instead they need to be reworked somehow, to bring their supporting power to a level that's in-line with other support classes.  If I knew how, I'd have made a thread awhile ago, but for now stat nerfs aren't the answer.  All it does is piss off pikemen, rather than balancing their effectiveness in battle.  Taking away overheads through teammates was a good start, but changes to speed, damage, etc., aren't going to change how they weapon is played.

I didnt say anything about change to damage, the weapon speed could be slower, should be, but the main things that need to be changed are the pikers have to move much slower wiht a pike and no lawl stabbing/bunny hoping. Blocking slower should also be in there, you cant block quickly wiht such a large weapon, and seeing the animations of people doing it in game looks ridiculous.

As far as the history debate that has started up here, pikes were used effectivly in a few battles by the swiss over a few decades and sparingly by the germans and scots, not really a big deal and nothing came of it. Pikes got destroyed by armies with archers like i had mentioned.

[Malaclypse]

The problem with thrusts in general in this game is the ridiculous spinning for speed bonus effect. This goes for Germans, Espadas, etc- it's not a Pike or even polearm only issue.

[POOPHAMMER]

The problem with thrusts in general in this game is the ridiculous spinning for speed bonus effect. This goes for Germans, Espadas, etc- it's not a Pike or even polearm only issue.

Yeah I dont think that real fighters on the battlefield were able to repeatedly spin around like fairies all day while landing every single stab

[okiN]

As far as the history debate that has started up here, pikes were used effectivly in a few battles by the swiss over a few decades and sparingly by the germans and scots, not really a big deal and nothing came of it.

The use of pikes spread from the Swiss and Germans to pretty much everyone else after the Hundred Years War, being further developed into the pike and shot formation, and remained the chief close combat weapon of infantry troops all over Europe until they were finally replaced by musket bayonets. You're delusional.

[Tanken]

Instead of Historical Discussion, let me address Lemmy as to why it is used, how it is used, and what it's weaknesses are.

Useful in Strat? Hell yes it is, I was able to reach you guys easily most times, but you had a shit-load of shields and your men equally had the same amount of Pike users, they just didn't know how to use it. KUTT, obviously, is a culprit for skilled pike users. When you have Xeen, Caita, and I picking up a pike, shit's going to get messy. While Pikes are good for infantry fighting and formations, they are also a good way to get your ass kicked if someone knows how to counter it.

In a solo-battle, or a one-on-one, we're going to lose almost every time unless we A) Switch weapons or B) the Enemy is Incompetent. When you see a Pike user jump, block down. They turn away with a chambered pike ready, block down. As soon as they waste a shot attacking you, you have (what feels like) a solid second to get an attack in and potentially begin stunning them to a horrific death. This is a Pike user's biggest weakness, not being able to throw up a block after an attack is made. If a pike user gets too close, hug them, attack them. We can't do shit even if we manage to pull off a spinstab (most times it hits our teammates).

Pike also has wonky hit boxes, there are times my hit box seems to just fly to the right of my weapon or get stuck on something way sooner than it should. However, what makes the Pike great is it's ability to be in formations, work around shield walls, catch unsuspecting people coming around corners, and more. There are a lot of Chaos members who picked up the Pike whom had little experience with it, and they didn't do that great with it. The Pike itself is a weapon that requires a pretty heavy bit of learning I'd say. It's not like a Maul or a Shielded 1hander or Katana that is very easy to pick up, learn, and do good with. Pike takes practice, and given how nerfed it is, it takes skill to use.

[Bonze]

Correct ....Pikes are the most unrealistic and bugged fantasy weapons in crpg ( hits from 30 cm with a 10000 kilometer pike, alright) ..quite interesting what the greeks, romans, landsknecht or swiss  have done. Crpg have small battles ,  no real physics,  no formation, no military tactics ... its just a wild mixed arade game with medival and Hong Kong kung Fu film elements.

[Zanze]

When I had just started playing this game, I practiced a lot with NH_Relit. Freaking amazing Longspearman. After about 20 duels total, I learned exactly how to fight a pike. Downblock. Its not rocket science. Downblock. He turns around? Downblock? He missed his stab? Downblock. He moves away? Downblock. He does ANYTHING. Downblock. You block his attack? Retaliate.

How is it that a gen 1 person who had the game for 2 weeks can routinely beat a gen 9 expert longspear? Downblock. The best way of explaining the fighting style of a pikeman is a game of trickery. Don't fall for their tricks and you will win easily. It is no different from fighting a 2h in the sense of block tennis. Stop trying to get that second or third hit in.

Yes, the jumpstab is extremely unrealistic. But what else do you really want us to do? Keel over and let you stab us because our pub teammates are incompetent or you outlasted your clanmates?

If you fall for the jumpstab, or die to a pike, its your own damn fault. You had the option to block down, and you chose not to.


Edit: Btw, am currently a longspearman atm. Ive done the entire gen as one. I didn't learn the jumpstab until...maybe yesterday? Half the time it doesn't work. Either they block, or you get hit by something else. Fighting 1v1 is extremely hard and you literally have maybe 2-3 jumpstabs at your disposal before they learn how to downblock.

[ArchonAlarion]

No one arguing pro-pike based on realism has faced this little fact: THE PIKE WASN'T EFFECTIVE BECAUSE YOU COULD JUMP-SPIN-SLASH.

That is the freaking issue at hand here. If it was fixed (removed), pikes used in formation would still be effective in crpg for the same reasons they were effective historically. If they aren't used in formation, then they won't be effective in crpg for the same reasons they wouldn't be effective historically.

[Tanken]

It was my understanding he was talking about the Pikes used in yesterday's Strategus battle--which all of them dealing kills -were- used in Formation.


Soooooo............................considering his side had just as much Pikes and we looted more Pikes from them than we started with, I don't see the point of this topic? Pike is a weapon of skill, try playing a whole generation with it, try picking it up and trying a jump stab, you will blow ass with it immediately.

I would say the Jump-spin is only a small percentage of my kills as a dedicated Pikeman. Reason why? It's more of a percentage of my teamkills than anything because despite how well you time it, the hit-box for the Pike always seems to be faulty and land in places you don't want it to go.

I always like to picture my hitbox as being a donut, sliding from my hand on the pike, all the way to the tip, and my job is to move the pike in such a manner that I slide that donut right down the pike and feed it to my opponent.

[Zanze]

Correct me if I am wrong, and mind you I am most of the time, but this is the game balance part of the suggestions forums. Citing history or anything related to realism should have no meaning here.

Now to properly balance pikes and longspears you cite the need for proper discipline and formation. Keeping balance in mind, that is extremely hard to achieve. The ability to execute a jumpstab effectively gives the piker room for error so that he may return to his teammates or stay at an effective piking distance with his weapon. What you ask is to completely remove any room for error in the playstyle of a pikeman, one wrong move and you are now separated from your teammates and most likely dead.

Is it wrong to reward such discipline in the use of a pike formation? Especially if they manage to easily defend against a disorganized mob?

[Lemmy_Winks]

Dont have time to read or address specifically the arguments u all have made. But what does any of that have to do with the realism of a pike. Once again people couldnt lawlstab in real life, move quickly with a pike in real life, or jump around in real life, or even block attacks.

These were the disadvantages of pikes and waht made them not very useful against infantry unless used in superb formation (and even then still not very useful), which i have never seen in this game, the defenders of hanun were a disorganized clusterfuck, at no poit in time were they in anything resembling a formation and as soon as combat began they broke apart, and it didnt matter anyways.

At any rate for what reasons, real reasons, should pikers should be able to do any of the things i listed in teh first paragraph.

[Ufthak]

Solution: remove lolstab from pike, add permanently active hitbox greatly dependent on speed bonus so that if an enemy so much as runs into the tip of a pike like a moron he automatically dies?

Realism achieved, now lets all cry more that the lolzy mechanic to compensate for the realism factor being overpowered was replaced with realism.

[Zerran]

When i said that to you it was in a battle server and i think it was after i killed you in a duel at the end of a round. In that situation, being in a battle server and fighting somene one on one yes its a shitty weapon. But with a group of people working together like in a strat battle where everyone has pikes, they are overpowered. While i acknowledged the fact taht even when running around on your own with a pike, the pike is unrealistic with teh speed you can move and the lawl stabbing and bunny hoping, i didnt care because it was still easy to fight someone who has it. But now that ive seen them in strat battles these unrealsitc and unfair features can no longer be ignored, they must be fixed.

The battle was at hanun which we fought last night, i guess you werent there, chaos had a shit ton of pikes and crushed us with them. The crpg equip web site doesnt say u cant use with a sheild, but at the same time i was generalizing pikes with other long spears. You were plate armor and have a pike and can outrun most people, when i was infantry i had 6 or 7 athletics and wore medium armor and i dont think i could catch you. Almost every semi-decent piker ive seen has a ton of athletics and is very fast. If weapon length slows you down already its clearly nto slowing people down enough. The lawl stabbing and bunny hopping is also a huge problem as i mentioned. In my opinion the bunny hop stabbing is almost as bad as the speed. Also as someoen else mentioned the side swiping, and stabbing people who are way close to you. Even in movies if you see phalanx troops you seem them moving extremely slowly, cause thats how it was. You only see someone with a long spear running 30 miles an hour and jumping 6ft in the air and spinning around stabbing people in kung foo movies, and they did that much shorter spears.

Unfortunately I was unable to be at that fight. But do remember Uslum where we had a huge number of pikes as well, and your archers totally nullified them. One or two fights where pikes dominate is hardly grounds to call them OP. Archers tend to dominate much harder in strat. Yes, pikes, longspears, etc are good support weapons and good group weapons, but if you take that away... what the hell do they have left?

At the time of that duel I was using 24 agi. I don't recall what armor I was using then, though I believe it was lighter-medium. Currently I have 18 agi 6 ath and use rus scale, and yes with this I still can keep up with a lot of people, but largely this is because infantry, at least in NA, seems to go very very low agi on average. When I drop the pike to use my sidearm there is a SIGNIFICANT increase in my running speed, at least 1-2 ath worth.

Removing the jumpstab would make pikes totally useless in 1v1 fights, which I suppose is what a lot of people want, but it does next to nothing to weaken the longspear, since they can hit at a closer range and so don't HAVE to jump. So essentially what it would mean is the pike would become completely worthless outside strat, meaning pretty much all pikemen would switch to longspears which are generally already a hell of a lot better for dueling.

The way this game's combat system works pikes and longspears are USELESS in realistic formations. They have to have "disorganized clusterfucks" in order to be effective. Due to enemies being able to just downblock all pikemen in front of them, it is necessary to flank and backstab in every fight, which can look like just mass confusion and disorganization.