Author Topic: Weapon Master - 2 handed  (Read 4873 times)

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Offline Meow

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Re: Weapon Master - 2 handed
« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2012, 02:04:27 pm »
+8
IF is more useful than amount of armor you have in many situations. You see, armor is only good for cut weapons and lately many people use pikes and other weapons which deal pierce damage. Pierce damage eats through armor, just as well as blunt damage.

This is not really true.

The more armor you got the more useful IF gets, no matter what.

Piercing and Blunt does not basically ignore armor it just has a better damage falloff against heavy armor.

Example:

(click to show/hide)

Using unloomed Great Axe, Morning Star and Bar Mace as example weapons as they are pretty close to each other and pierce and blunt damage on weapons is mostly way lower than cut on equal weapons, also often those weapons are shorter or slower in trade off for Knockdown/Crushthrough and better anti armor potential.

Great Axe - 43 Cut
Armor: 0
Minimum: 73
Average: 77.5
Maximum: 82
Armor: 10
Minimum: 53
Average: 62.5
Maximum: 72
Armor: 20
Minimum: 38
Average: 50
Maximum: 62
Armor 30
Minimum: 27
Average: 40.5
Maximum: 54
Armor 40
Minimum: 19
Average: 33
Maximum: 47
Armor 50
Minimum: 13
Average: 27
Maximum: 41
Armor 60
Minimum: 9
Average: 22
Maximum: 35
                    Morningstar 38 Pierce
Armor: 0
Minimum: 65
Average: 68.5
Maximum: 72
Armor: 10
Minimum: 51
Average: 58
Maximum: 65
Armor: 20
Minimum: 40
Average: 49.5
Maximum: 59
Armor: 30
Minimum: 31
Average: 42
Maximum: 53
Armor 40
Minimum: 24
Average: 36
Maximum: 48
Armor 50
Minimum: 18
Average: 30.5
Maximum: 43
Armor 60
Minimum: 14
Average: 26
Maximum: 38
                    Bar Mace 35 Blunt
Armor: 0
Minimum: 60
Average: 63.5
Maximum: 67
Armor: 10
Minimum: 47
Average: 53.5
Maximum: 60
Armor: 20
Minimum: 36
Average: 45
Maximum: 54
Armor: 30
Minimum: 28
Average: 38
Maximum: 48
Armor 40
Minimum: 21
Average: 32
Maximum: 43
Armor 50
Minimum: 16
Average: 27
Maximum: 38
Armor 60
Minimum: 12
Average: 23
Maximum: 34

Gawd I hate doing tables.

If anyone got a better thread for this - let me know but I wanted to make a point about the rumor that armor is worthless so people don't get wrong info when they ask for help.

Edit1: Fixed and error in the Armor: 10 part for blunt.

Edit2: Not exactly sure but judging by the native damage display, speed bonus is applied in % to the raw damage which means that cut due to it having the highest damage numbers would benefit and suffer the most from it.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 04:27:17 pm by Meow »

Offline Cup1d

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Re: Weapon Master - 2 handed
« Reply #46 on: February 22, 2012, 03:43:27 pm »
0
Meow, can you copy this info and past as sticky post in noob section? I think your table deserve it.

Offline rustyspoon

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Re: Weapon Master - 2 handed
« Reply #47 on: February 22, 2012, 04:06:30 pm »
+2
About WM (something I forgot to mention). It's very useful for one handers but twohanders and polearmers can't really feel the difference (unless they spam katana and use light armor aka ninja but that's not very smart thing to do).

Actually, it's even MORE useless for 1-handers because of their initially fast swing speed. I used to use 5 wm because I had nothing better to put points in. Now I go with 0 WM and there's really no difference. According to the damage calculator I only lose 1 point of damage so...yeah...

I use an 18/21 build and switching my points from WM to IF has made a HUGE difference. My swing speed difference is barely noticeable, but my survivability has gone up dramatically.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 04:14:19 pm by rustyspoon »
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Offline Spawny

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Re: Weapon Master - 2 handed
« Reply #48 on: February 22, 2012, 04:39:08 pm »
0
Actually, it's even MORE useless for 1-handers because of their initially fast swing speed. I used to use 5 wm because I had nothing better to put points in. Now I go with 0 WM and there's really no difference. According to the damage calculator I only lose 1 point of damage so...yeah...

I use an 18/21 build and switching my points from WM to IF has made a HUGE difference. My swing speed difference is barely noticeable, but my survivability has gone up dramatically.

Played from level 1 to level 29 without WM this gen on my main (1h/shield) and intended to do a 0 WM build and go for 27/15 at level 32 (you posted in my thread about that several times). I thought I didn't notice that much of a difference. And you don't in general.
UNTIL you fight that 2h with maxed out WM. It might be just a 2-4% difference in swingspeed, but I definatly feel it makes a difference in those 1v1 situations.
Ultimately, the difference between a 27/15 build no wm and a 21/18 build full wm comes down to about 1 level of PS difference in damage (due to wpf giving a small damage increase) and 1 athletics.
To be able be more competitive when dueling, I chose the 1 athletics, as mobility and a slightly faster swing speed allow for better range control (needed as a 1h) and slightly faster feints/fake swings.
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Offline rustyspoon

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Re: Weapon Master - 2 handed
« Reply #49 on: February 22, 2012, 05:57:12 pm »
0
Played from level 1 to level 29 without WM this gen on my main (1h/shield) and intended to do a 0 WM build and go for 27/15 at level 32 (you posted in my thread about that several times). I thought I didn't notice that much of a difference. And you don't in general.
UNTIL you fight that 2h with maxed out WM. It might be just a 2-4% difference in swingspeed, but I definatly feel it makes a difference in those 1v1 situations.
Ultimately, the difference between a 27/15 build no wm and a 21/18 build full wm comes down to about 1 level of PS difference in damage (due to wpf giving a small damage increase) and 1 athletics.
To be able be more competitive when dueling, I chose the 1 athletics, as mobility and a slightly faster swing speed allow for better range control (needed as a 1h) and slightly faster feints/fake swings.

Honestly, I was fighting some maxed out WPF 2h's this morning and didn't have a problem. I think the reason being is the difference between our builds. Your build with no WM only has 5 athletics. I have 7. That and I wear pretty light gear.

Also even with 50 or 60 WPF more than me, that will only increase their swing speed by about .3 seconds. With their slower initial speed I'm sure our swing speeds are pretty comparable. (I use a MW Italian which is 100 speed)

I DO notice a swing speed difference between 160 wpf and 110 wpf, but with the amount of athletics I use, it really doesn't make a difference in practice.
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Offline Canary

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Re: Weapon Master - 2 handed
« Reply #50 on: February 22, 2012, 07:24:54 pm »
+6
About WM (something I forgot to mention). It's very useful for one handers but twohanders and polearmers can't really feel the difference (unless they spam katana and use light armor aka ninja but that's not very smart thing to do).

On the contrary:

...weapon proficiency has a greater absolute reduction in the time per attack for slower weapons than for faster weapons.

The reason why proficiency might be more noticeably beneficial for 1handers is because of the damage bonus it provides.

Let us summarize it. IF is better than WM.

But my questions was, is WM useful.


WM isn't useless. Strenght maybe gives you some onehit kills, but in the end you are so slow and dont have any athletics either.

No, weapon master is not useless. It is, however, one of the worst returns you can possibly make for the investment, for a pure proficiency build. This isn't an argument between weapon master and strength, this is a discussion about every single other thing you can use your skill points on besides weapon master. You can go high agility and high strength by sacrificing points in weapon master, you know?

Anyway, here's what I mean about poor returns:

To put this in perspective, a level 30 character with 3 agility, no weapon master, and 110 polearm proficiency would attack ~5% slower than a level 30 character with 27 agility, 9 weapon master, and 180 polearm proficiency if both characters were to use a speed 94 polearm. The absolute difference in time per attack between these two characters would be ~0.06 seconds.

That's less than a tenth of a second off the total time of one swing, comparing those characters. With a faster weapon the increase would be even smaller. And that's an exaggerated difference of 70 proficiency points! You would also be receiving about 10% increased melee damage in that weapon class, though, but to put that into perspective, that's only a quarter of a skill point's worth higher than one power strike. If you didn't get any weapon master, and instead put 6 of those skill points into 3 more strength and 1 of them into power strike, you'd more than make up the difference in damage on top of having 3 additional hit points and two extra skill points that you could put elsewhere!

Well maybe you didn't actually say WM is useless but OP was asking if it is useful and you run to say quite the opposite. Something tells me that you are stacking strenght and completely underestimating the importance of agility and the benefits it gives with athletics, and weaponmaster. Yeah when it really comes to it, it's just what you prefer. I know high IF with heavy armor is hard to kill and absorbs many hits but due to character's slow movement it is more likely to end in a situation where you are completely raped with pikes + other weapons, and there is nothing you can do because you are not able to move out from their range.

Yes. Lysander asked a question, and Rhaelys answered it. You just happen, apparently, not to like the answer provided. So Rhaelys stacks strength? That's called speaking from experience. There aren't many scenarios of getting "raped with pikes + other weapons" when you see Rhaelys consistently perform as one of the top players on the servers that are relevant to these scenarios. The idea that having high strength somehow makes you helpless and lose your battle-sense is ridiculous propaganda. There is also the idea of a more balanced build, even one that favors strength just a little bit.

Isn't it ironic that a continent with less ranged tends to stack strenght and ironflesh even if they wouldn't neccessarily have to because they can simply dodge the few arrows that are flying on the server? And what about lighter gear and athletics in a situation where you are facing an archer? I would say agi build is more powerful since it can easilly dodge the arrows and actually catch the archer who is running away... Situation doesn't look so bright for str build because the bundle of sticks just keeps shooting you, hitting you every time while running.

That's not ironic at all, that's adaptation to a given situation. The so-called meta-game may be different on NA, but that's because we don't believe that the S-key is synonymous with the word "footwork" around here. I'm being insulting to you because you brought it upon yourself.

Anyhow, it's not necessarily better or easier to catch an archer as a high agility build. Sometimes a shield works better, sometimes hiding works better, and running faster doesn't always make dodging that much simpler. Catching up to them, yeah, but then if you do get hit running that fast you're not only taking ever-so-much-more damage because of your higher runspeed giving them a speed bonus, but you're probably in lighter armor to be able to run that fast and probably don't have all that excess strength and ironflesh to absorb as many of the arrow hits! It makes it more doable, but it also makes arrows much more dangerous.

Goddamn you Tears Of Destiny of Chaos...

Now this is just plain uncalled for.


I do not think anybody will advocate getting 9 WM for a melee non-hybrid build.
I do  :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

If this is the case, then why bother asking whether or not weapon master is useful? It seems like you made your decision before the discussion even began, Lysander.

Sorry for the horrible formatting.

Offline MrShine

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Re: Weapon Master - 2 handed
« Reply #51 on: February 22, 2012, 07:51:09 pm »
0
Canary's post covers pretty much everything so I don't have much more to add.

The one thing that I do want to add is the 5% speed boost gained from the increase of 70 wpf can be made even less significant if people turn into their swings... iirc the speed boost takes the entire swing from start to finish into account, but most people are able to hit at an earlier point in the swing.

I used to think WM really mattered, but after more playing I realized it was more of a placebo effect.  I have an alt that I am planning on making 36-3, and even with a slower polearm I am able to swing perfectly fine even in heavy armor... the biggest problem I run into is the lack of athletics and end up getting circled quite easily.  But this is only outlines the importance of athletics, not WM.

..but by all means let's keep the idea that WM is worth maxing out for single weapon builds over IF or shield skill..I love 1-2 hitting people!
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Offline Gnjus

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Re: Weapon Master - 2 handed
« Reply #52 on: February 22, 2012, 08:03:25 pm »
0
So many Einsteins & Sherlocks here that I'm certain they won't have any troubles explaining to me a situation that occurred just today on EU1:

(click to show/hide)

With this build & a +3 Great Maul (47 blunt damage) i sneaked up behind an archer in a blue T-Shirt and no helmet (0 head armor, naked red-haired Russian Chap) and i slammed an overhead directly on top of his carrot-topped head but (surprise surprise !!) he didn't die, he didn't even fall down, he just turned around and ran for his life, fleeing like a hero that he is. Good game.....good game indeed.

(click to show/hide)
Do you honestly think you have any sort of moral authority, Reyiz? Go genocide some more armenians and deny it ever happened, please, and stay in the middle east.
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Offline Penguin

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Re: Weapon Master - 2 handed
« Reply #53 on: February 22, 2012, 08:36:07 pm »
0
So many Einsteins & Sherlocks here that I'm certain they won't have any troubles explaining to me a situation that occurred just today on EU1:

(click to show/hide)

With this build & a +3 Great Maul (47 blunt damage) i sneaked up behind an archer in a blue T-Shirt and no helmet (0 head armor, naked red-haired Russian Chap) and i slammed an overhead directly on top of his carrot-topped head but (surprise surprise !!) he didn't die, he didn't even fall down, he just turned around and ran for his life, fleeing like a hero that he is. Good game.....good game indeed.

(click to show/hide)

This seems suspect since I use a non-loomed great maul with my Agi STF (18/24 6 PS) and can one shot pretty much anyone not wearing a helmet with a downswing. Let alone a peasant wearing 0 armor? Any kind of swing should be taking him out. I think this is a case of you potentially missing the open swing and glancing, or some other variable is involved. Needless to say it clearly is an anomaly.
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Offline Gnjus

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Re: Weapon Master - 2 handed
« Reply #54 on: February 22, 2012, 08:40:05 pm »
0
This seems suspect since I use a non-loomed great maul with my Agi STF (18/24 6 PS) and can one shot pretty much anyone not wearing a helmet with a downswing. Let alone a peasant wearing 0 armor? Any kind of swing should be taking him out. I think this is a case of you potentially missing the open swing and glancing, or some other variable is involved. Needless to say it clearly is an anomaly.

I'm not saying he is a peasant but the 0 head armor part is 100% true & correct. And it was a clear overhead, saw him "stuttle" and then he hit the road.
Do you honestly think you have any sort of moral authority, Reyiz? Go genocide some more armenians and deny it ever happened, please, and stay in the middle east.
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Offline wayyyyyne

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Re: Weapon Master - 2 handed
« Reply #55 on: February 22, 2012, 08:40:46 pm »
0
Needless to say it clearly is an anomaly.

Just like you wielding a great maul with 18 str

Offline Penguin

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Re: Weapon Master - 2 handed
« Reply #56 on: February 22, 2012, 08:47:02 pm »
0
Just like you wielding a great maul with 18 str

Sorry, get them mixed up, I meant the long maul! (Though the long maul's stats are still below the great maul's)
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Offline Nehvar

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Re: Weapon Master - 2 handed
« Reply #57 on: February 22, 2012, 09:11:47 pm »
0
This is what I'm rolling with (by the end of the day).

Attributes

Strength   18   
Agility   24   

Weapon proficiency

One Handed   1
Two Handed   133
Polearm      1
Archery      1
Crossbow   1
Throwing   1

Skills

Iron Flesh   6
Power Strike   6
Shield      0
Athletics      8
Riding      0
Horse Archery   0
Power Draw   0
Power Throw   0
Weapon Master   3


As far as I'm concerned WM comes last.  Max your power strike and athletics first, iron flesh second, and then you can put points into weapon master; but only if you don't want shield or riding skill.  The effects of weapon master on a single-skill, non-ranged build are almost unnoticeable.

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Re: Weapon Master - 2 handed
« Reply #58 on: February 23, 2012, 12:23:36 am »
0
So many Einsteins & Sherlocks here that I'm certain they won't have any troubles explaining to me a situation that occurred just today on EU1:

I killed you multiple times with my shielder alt. That's what happened :twisted:
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Offline HarunYahya

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Re: Weapon Master - 2 handed
« Reply #59 on: February 23, 2012, 05:55:13 am »
0
Weapon master gives you wpf which  adds damage and speed into added branch of weapons.
I don't see any reason to reject extra speed and damage .