Axes: Polearm vs 2-Handed

[Gurnisson]

Laugh all you want. Your only 2H alt is now 2H cav, maybe because you can't kill as many people as you do on your gaystabber main

What did I just say? Fun > Min-maxing. Now I have no IF and no shield and get shot to bits, but I haven't had more fun in-game than as 2H cav.

Also, I had no troubles whatsoever doing well as dedicated 2H. 

[Teeth]

With polearms it's a lot harder to trick your opponent to believing that you already released your attack. Left swing + hold + wiggle = free hit on 90 % of the playerbase with 2Hs because it really looks like a hit, which is hard to do with a polearm. Polearms have a stuttering animation which is hard to imitate. That's why I believe the smooth animations are superior.

The stuttering jerky animations are amazing for convincing fake attacks. My favourite is the late rightswing feint and then another right swing. You can cancel it really late and it really looks like an attack. And if all else fails, theres always the close range rightswing feint and stab.

[Angantyr]

2H stab has length, polearms stab have speed. Greatswords outreach long awlpike, ashwood, awlpike etc.? Well, yes, and it's dumb realism-wise but balancing-wise it's fine since the polestab is faster than the 2H stab.

I've seen this claimed a few times now but if using Stabbing Hobo's 'Amount of reach added to weapon length due to animation' numbers we find that the Long Awlpike beats the longest two-hander (Danish Greatsword) in reach in all its animations but the stab where they have the exact same length, and furthermore that the Ashwood Pike beats the Danish on all accounts but the stab. Though the 2h GS stab does outreach many polearms, and unless my math is flawed (it may very well be ) obviously the '2handers are longer than polearms' belief is a myth.

Danish Greatsword = 124 reach
Overhead = 139
Left-to-right = 141
Right-to-lef = 137
Thrust = 204

Long Awlpike = 185 reach
Overhead = 170
Thrust = 204

Ashwood Pike = 166 reach
Overhead = 151
Thrust = 185

[Siiem]

Polearm stab connects so fast that the length advantage of 2h greatswords are usually easily neglected by pikes and awl pikes anyway

[Gurnisson]

I've seen this claimed a few times now but if using Stabbing Hobo's 'Amount of reach added to weapon length due to animation' numbers we find that the Long Awlpike beats the longest two-hander (Danish Greatsword) in reach in all its animations but the stab where they have the exact same length, and furthermore that the Ashwood Pike beats the Danish on all accounts but the stab. Though the 2h GS stab does outreach many polearms, and unless my math is flawed (it may very well be ) obviously the '2handers are longer than polearms' belief is a myth.

Why are you adding sideswings on the polearms?

You do know that neither the ashwood pike, nor the long awlpike has got sideswings? Also, I can't find the thread but there was a guy testing all animations in crpg one-by-one and according to him the 2H polearm stab was the one adding the least length with... zero added. A long awlpike has the stab length of 185 if those numbers are correct. I don't think the 2H stab is as long as +80 in crpg either though. Don't know the exact numbers though. Maybe the long awlpike is longer but I'm not sure

Also Angantyr, I was only talking about stabs. I know that all the other swings are shorter.

[Angantyr]

Why are you adding sideswings on the polearms?

Haha, indeed, I knew I missed something when plotting numbers in. I'm just tired alright 

Also, I can't find the thread but there was a guy testing all animations in crpg one-by-one and according to him the 2H polearm stab was the one adding the least length with... zero added. A long awlpike has the stab length of 185 if those numbers are correct. I don't think the 2H stab is as long as +80 in crpg either though. Don't know the exact numbers though. Maybe the long awlpike is longer but I'm not sure

It must be same guy I got my data from, Tears of Destiny posted it in the 'General Guide For New Players'. It's old and not entirely accurate data though, the original post is here: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,118906.msg2872758.html#msg2872758

And the numbers themselves:

Standard = Onehand overhead (+0)

1h
Overhead = +0
Left-to-right = +0
Right-to-left = +19
Thrust = +61

2h
Overhead = +15
Left-to-right = +17
Right-to-left = +13
Thrust = +80

2h Polearms
Overhead = -15
Left-to-right = -7
Right-to-left = -2
Thrust = +19

1h Polearms
Thrust = +50

*DISCLAIMER*
This test was done against a dummy, with modified weapon lenghts. Margin of error is probably around +/-3. For your information, testing this with no information about the reaches took a lot of time. If you want more accurate results you'll have to do it by yourself.

Anyway, my point stands that one cannot say 2handers are longer than polearms, even if you meant something else just there (and at least according to these numbers Long Awlpike is as long as the Danish).

edit:
Stabbing Hobo also had this to say:

Data on 1h and 2h should be somewhat accurate, when I got to polearms I just wanted to get done faster so they may be off a cm or two.

[Gurnisson]

Not talking about that one. A guy tested it on crpg about a month ago back with different results

[Angantyr]

Think I found them here. As the other test of course not entirely accurate either, but at least now we can watch his video and judge for ourselves.


With this guy's numbers it looks like this:

Danish
Stab = 189
Overhead = 154
Left/right = 154

Long Awlpike
Stab = 185
Overhead = 200

Ashwood Pike
Stab = 166
Overhead = 181

[Gurnisson]

Yeah, that's the one

[Angantyr]

Wish we knew the precise values 

[Digglez]

so these supposedly badass HEAVY and unbalanced axes that are wedge shaped do negligibly more dmg than slim light pointy swords.

since WSE is working, give axes a 25-50% bludgeon damage component: hack damage

[BlackMilk]

http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,25086.0.html

[Leshma]

since WSE is working, give axes a 25-50% bludgeon damage component: hack damage

Another random modifier. Like we don't have enough of those in World of Warband.

[Jarlek]

Another random modifier. Like we don't have enough of those in World of Warband.

Sigh. He obviously didn't mean a random number between 25-50% of the damage should be blunt damage. He meant a fixed number somewhere BETWEEN 25-50% of axes damage should be blunt, while the rest is cut. Same percentage all the time. The range is there as an example, and so that the (un)balancing team can choose exactly how much of the axe damage should be blunt. Capiche?

[Aleta]

I would like to raise your attention to this: http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,25086.0.html

In short it proves that on average you can subtract 20 length from polearms compared to the 2 other weapons. Still, the 2 handed axes are crappy enough even without being unbalanced, so I say remove it to give them a tiny buff.