Author Topic: Teamplay, how can we resurrect it?  (Read 11225 times)

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Offline Joker86

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Re: Teamplay, how can we resurrect it?
« Reply #105 on: January 04, 2012, 12:26:50 am »
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I think it is more fun, and probably more rewarding to get a 1 time reward rather than ticking in. Ticking in rewards are grind-reminding.

It doesn't even have to be that great.. Valour and/or even a public message would be cool if a flag bearer survived the round, or someone picked up a flag.

I wasn't thinking of banners taking item slots. I think you shouldn't be punished for trying to lead your team by not being allowed to fight.

(click to show/hide)

Now, for example, whenever you approach the right flag (or there are none set, which means you can move freely), you can get a small reward, once per tick. But if you for example approach the "danger!"-flag, you don't receive a punishment, but you won't be able to receive a reward for this tick any more, either.

And if you kill an enemy that joined the class you were assigned to target, you get a small reward. (Ouch! I just realize that this would be some sort of reward for kills, the thing I was always against it - I have to rethink this one  :? )

A reward could be 5 gold and 10 XP, for example. Something little, but still enough to make you follow orders if you are indifferent about it, otherwise. (Just to maotivate people who don't care if they use tactics or not, and thus in most cases, as there is no tactic, don't follow any  :? )


That way you will reward people who stop thinking and just do what a person "commands", just to get a bonus  :rolleyes:

Further this will totally kill any individualism, as everyone would do that stuff to get more xp or gold  :rolleyes:

Bad idea.

In theory it sounds like you are right. But in reality we are talking about the cRPG community.  :P

It wouldn't make people stop thinking, as this implies they would be thinking now. But they are not. So nothing worse there  :wink:

And those people, who actually value their individualism, won't let themselves being bribed by those tiny rewards, as they are people who usually think about what would be the tactically best thing to do every round, and so the command system is not meant for them. Anyway, if the commander is half way competent the actions of those individualistic players and the commander's orders will overlap, anyway.

And for people who see their individualism in weakening their team by charging five enemies on their own in the attempt to win somehow, I think it is completely justified, that if they don't take care of their team they don't receive any additional rewards.  :P

People start thinking! Just take the role of commander and start giving orders instead of whining about absent teamplay....If you give clear and understandable and also more or less logic orders (telling your team to charge in a line one after another for example wouldn't be logical^^) people will start to follow you, at least a couple of them. If people see that they survived for a long time they will start following these orders as well -->  TADA! Teamplay

You are like politicians^^  Lots of discussion, but it leads to nothing :P

Less talking, more raiding ;)

I tried what you said. I didn't only give orders, I also explained why and how, and still only in few cases the team listened. In most cases the team completely splitted up (between those who listened and moved to a certain location/waited, and those "I can't release the [W]-key-lemmings"), worse than without any suggested tactics, resulting in really ugly steamrolls, making most of the players think: no tactics makes us lose the round, tactics make us being steamrolled, so no tactics must be better than tactics."

Honestly, in most cases it will fail. Just try it yourself. Only a few, most of those who actually followed you, will see that it was not your fault the round was lost. Usually it will be those who ignored everything, charged over the open field, being shot by dozens of archers and then ridden down by cavalry, who will blame you for having lost them the round.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 12:30:56 am by Joker86 »
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Thomek

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Re: Teamplay, how can we resurrect it?
« Reply #106 on: January 04, 2012, 03:51:29 am »
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You are better than me with walls of texts joker :)

Anyway.. If some trusted and experienced players that WANT to carry flags do it, they will have some autonomy themselves. They will know what to do when leader doesn't see whats going on.

Let's say leader put a bunch of archers on a field, when they would be better off 10m away in the trees or on a hill for some cav protection.

People won't be mindless robots, you would reduce the whole game to nothing for 99% of players.. Besides we had a commander system not so far away from what you suggest once upon a time.

Teamwork has to be more fun for everyone than what we have now, or there is no point in this thread.

That's the real challenge.

* And, why commanders often fail, is because of slow response from the team players. A Charging bunch will most of the time win against a static group because of initiative and movement. Hard discipline trumps this again.. but I almost never saw that in a cRPG battle. (Except holding doors against bots in DTV) As individuals a moving soldier is much less likely to be stabbed in the back than a static one.


(Damn just got a great idea.. From Sudden Strike 1 and many other games if anyone played it. There used to be a tactical map before each mission, where you are told what to expect and strengths and weaknesses etc. Would be great if commanders had a chance to SHOW their tactic before each round. let's say 10-15 seconds where everyone see the map from above, and the commander draw lines on it. I believe it could be done with a forced birds eye perspective for everyone, and an interface for the commanders to draw on the map.. Dunno :) on the other hand we have capable coders around)
« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 04:01:05 am by Thomek »
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Offline Gisbert_of_Thuringia

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Re: Teamplay, how can we resurrect it?
« Reply #107 on: January 04, 2012, 09:13:54 am »
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If the flag was smaller I'd take it, but I can't shoot with such a big thing on my shoulder^.^

Joker, did you repeat your commands over and over again for the whole round? Lime "wait and stick together" or whatever every 10-15 seconds?
That way it usually worked, for me and for Lansamur and several others I saw commanding


But maybe you were just unlucky with your team^.^

Offline Glyph

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Re: Teamplay, how can we resurrect it?
« Reply #108 on: January 04, 2012, 10:28:50 am »
+1
Short explanations:
what the helll is your defenition of a long explanation?!!!!!! :shock:

but good idea, we need more people like you on the forum. but like thomek said, we need to make tesamwork fun and rewarding, if it is executioned in the right way, teamwork is always rewarding. but i think a lot of people don't know that and therefore, they don't use it. so we have to get teamwork out of the closet :lol:, and the idea of thomek is a good way to do that, everyone will know teamwork will be used. the fun part is also acctually just a matter of making it public, if i play a round with teamwork and shieldwall, advances, cavalry charges and so on, it's automaticly fun for me, and a lot more then just a lame round where everyone runs around like they can kill the entire team on their own, and the problem is, they can. if you are a very good player, then you can easily take down a shitload of people, if they wouldn't be possible to do so, then more teamwork would be used. don't get me wrong, i don't want to make this mod a no-skill mod, but i want the skill from the person be transformed into skill from the team.
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Offline Vibe

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Re: Teamplay, how can we resurrect it?
« Reply #109 on: January 04, 2012, 12:47:37 pm »
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tl;dr

Offline Gisbert_of_Thuringia

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Re: Teamplay, how can we resurrect it?
« Reply #110 on: January 04, 2012, 01:03:45 pm »
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tl;dr

Where is the bus?   :rolleyes:    ^.^

Offline Joker86

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Re: Teamplay, how can we resurrect it?
« Reply #111 on: January 04, 2012, 01:58:24 pm »
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Let's say leader put a bunch of archers on a field, when they would be better off 10m away in the trees or on a hill for some cav protection.

Of course this sucks, but there is of course a bigger radius in which you count as "at the flag", I would say 25m at least, as you still have to move. I don't think you need commands that are more percisely than "take the way here, between these two houses" and "We wait behind this barn", which can be a fairly wide space.

And finally I am so optimistic about the people volunteering for commander and being elected by the community, that I must assume the commander has a reason to place the archers on the open field. And again, as I said, you are free to follow every single command or not. If one command doesn't suit you, don't follow it. If the commands start to annoy you, exit the command system.

People won't be mindless robots, you would reduce the whole game to nothing for 99% of players.. Besides we had a commander system not so far away from what you suggest once upon a time.

Teamwork has to be more fun for everyone than what we have now, or there is no point in this thread.

That's the real challenge.

Well, they already are mindless lemmings, so I am confident you can turn them to mindless robots, too. Especially if you support their urge to farm  :lol:

Teamwork is fun per se, most people just don't know about it.

It's like a rock you have to get over a hill. It's difficult to push it up, but once you reached the top, it will keep rolling by itself. You first need "real", concrete rewards for it, so everyone sees a benefit in them, never mind if it's the real benefit of tactics or not.

The point is to make a good part or even the majority of the team use tactics. If they do so, a good part of the rest will follow, be it only because of some "sheep"-mentality or the fear of fighting alone if not sticking to the group, and you will have only a few players who jump willingly into their bukkake-rape.

If this becomes custom on the servers, it will have several effects:

most important of all, people will start to learn and to realize. They will see that tactics help a team winning, more than having a lot of skilled players, and with right tactics (and the enemy team making mistakes, e.g. using no tactic at all) you can kill all the 80 enemy players with 5 own losses or so. (Extreme example, but happened). People will see the benefits of teamplay, and they will realize it's not a tad less fun than charging headlong into the next bunch of enemies, if anything, it's more fun!

And people will learn about tactics themselves. They will see which things work better and which worse, and the overall understanding of tactical matters will increase. Which means people will wait BEHIND bottlenecks, not IN them, or they will hold a hilltop by going into cover right BEHIND it, instead of exposing themselves to enemy fire ONTOP of it. The game will become more professional.

And finally, new players (whenever there is steam sale you get a whole new bunch of them) won't learn the game to know any other than with using tactics, and so they will use them themselves, by default.

If we reach this point (simply by taking advantage of the greed of the players, rewarding them for following mindlessly, at least in the beginning), chadz can make a new patch that kills the game, removing all command rewards. Players will cry and flame about the missing rewards, but they won't suddenly stop using tactics. Perhaps the overall teamplay level will be that high, that commanders are not even needed that much, any more.

We must create the "custom" of teamplay. People are creatures of habit, once they get used to something, they stick to it. Removing the rewards after some time again will bring back the total "freedom" you were missing in my suggestion. The difference is, that at this point the community will be "educated" enough to gain some advantage of it.

tl;dr

Honestly, Vibe, I couldn't care less. Either contribute something or just fuck off, I don't care, but please stop spamming around, increasing your post count e-peen.
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Vibe

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Re: Teamplay, how can we resurrect it?
« Reply #112 on: January 04, 2012, 02:08:23 pm »
+1
Honestly, Vibe, I couldn't care less. Either contribute something or just fuck off, I don't care, but please stop spamming around, increasing your post count e-peen.

Due to your percentage of useless suggestions I deemed your current suggestion unworthy of time that would be required to read it.

PS: post count +1, u mad?

Offline Glyph

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Re: Teamplay, how can we resurrect it?
« Reply #113 on: January 04, 2012, 02:13:09 pm »
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Due to your percentage of useless suggestions I deemed your current suggestion unworthy of time that would be required to read it.

PS: post count +1, u mad?
if you don't care, you don't have to read it. if you read it and this is the way you think about it, stay away from his topics or try to post something usefull.
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Offline Joker86

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Re: Teamplay, how can we resurrect it?
« Reply #114 on: January 04, 2012, 02:21:10 pm »
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Due to your percentage of useless suggestions I deemed your current suggestion unworthy of time that would be required to read it.

You are perfectly right to do so, and if I am honest I can understand it very well concerning several aspects, but there was absolutely NO NEED to inform the others about what you DON'T do. The only reson to do so is trying to upset me, and this isn't a sign of good a character.

I am a man, unlike women I can only do one, perhaps two things at a time, besides breathing and blinking. If I always posted what I don't do, I would be posting every single action you can do on this world, except of "posting what I don't do", for the rest of my life. Which is both useless and uninteresting for the others.  :wink:
« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 02:23:41 pm by Joker86 »
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Vibe

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Re: Teamplay, how can we resurrect it?
« Reply #115 on: January 04, 2012, 02:33:25 pm »
+1
I just sighed

Offline Thomek

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Re: Teamplay, how can we resurrect it?
« Reply #116 on: January 04, 2012, 03:43:42 pm »
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hmm.. I just don't think people care that much about the grind really. It's not much you can do either way. Just play the game your pace and looms etc will come. If you are a below average player the autobalance will put in an above average player in your team to compensate. There are few ways to hack the autobalance in a leveling sense except fighting harder at x5 or so..

What I think people do care about is having fun and the respect/attention of other players. They basically want to be seen and noticed somehow.

That's why I think rewards should be Red Text, Public Valour or similar. Even some special items like a crown like some people suggested.
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Offline Joker86

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Re: Teamplay, how can we resurrect it?
« Reply #117 on: January 04, 2012, 04:11:32 pm »
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Well, then perhaps introduce a new currency to buy some new eye-candy-items that have really good, though not the best stats. This way players who fight for their team instead for themselves have an opportunity to externalize their social attitude  :mrgreen:
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Kajia

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Re: Teamplay, how can we resurrect it?
« Reply #118 on: January 06, 2012, 05:13:18 pm »
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If we reach this point (simply by taking advantage of the greed of the players, rewarding them for following mindlessly, at least in the beginning), chadz can make a new patch that kills the game, removing all command rewards. Players will cry and flame about the missing rewards, but they won't suddenly stop using tactics. Perhaps the overall teamplay level will be that high, that commanders are not even needed that much, any more.

We must create the "custom" of teamplay. People are creatures of habit, once they get used to something, they stick to it. Removing the rewards after some time again will bring back the total "freedom" you were missing in my suggestion. The difference is, that at this point the community will be "educated" enough to gain some advantage of it.

very nice ambition here. you want to enforce people to think for themselves. I can only say: yes!
I think what will also help is people carefully looking at clans doing teamplay. today I had a good time watching some wolpers doing high level teamplay with everyone else in the other team. I think it's quite a rich experience to fight against those well-attuned groups, or with them of course.

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Offline Joker86

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Re: Teamplay, how can we resurrect it?
« Reply #119 on: January 06, 2012, 07:14:56 pm »
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Thanks for your support!  :D

I think what will also help is people carefully looking at clans doing teamplay.

I think this is where the problem lies. What you (and a few others) suggested requires self-initiative from the community (even if it is noticing something very basic.). And this is what you won't get, otherwise we would already have a decent level of teamplay.

I already read other things in this topic, like "if you think about it" or "a vote system won't work, if you see good commanders write them down on a sheet of paper" and similar things. But all those things don't work.

In my eyes the majority of the population on a server behaves like a bunch of lemmings in search of the next cliff. Every other solution than one that "pushes" them into teamplay by default, only letting those out who actively refuse, won't bring any improvement.

It's like the law for compulsory education. First all people are not that into learning and school (as they are still children), but as soon as they get teenagers, many of them realize the importance of a good education, and keep on learning by themselves, to earn a higher graduation. Even if it's not fun for them, they see it's the "right" way. If they wouldn't have been forced by the law to visit the first few classes, many of them wouldn't differ a bit from all that other folks you see in front of pubs, stations or strip clubs, as they wouldn't know it another way.

The only difference is, that teamplay is a lot of more fun, for far more people, than higher education is.  :wink:
Joker makes a very good point.
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