What Religion are you?

[LordBerenger]

http://forum.melee.org/index.php?action=profile;u=8177

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[Sir_Hans]

Agnostics and Atheists should not be grouped together under the same category. That shit irks me!

Atheists are just as ridiculous as fundamental christians! 

[MacX85]

Agnostics and Atheists should not be grouped together under the same category. That shit irks me!

Atheists are just as ridiculous as fundamental christians! 

Atheism addresses belief, agnosticism knowledge. The two are not mutually exclusive.

[Sir_Hans]

They both address belief and both address knowledge.

But, to be fair, it really depends what brand of atheism and what brand of agnosticism we are talking about here. But there are definitely types that are in fact mutually exclusive.

For example the type of atheist who would claim "Science is proof there is no God"
is not compatible with the "hard" agnostic who would claim "It is impossible for anyone to know whether there is or is not a God."

But you could also have an atheist say "Based on current knowledge and science, I believe there is no God"
and a "soft" agnostic could say "Nobody knows whether there is a God or Not, but perhaps one day we might make a discovery which proves it one way or the other."

The point is this:
Both atheists and agnostics already share such a wide set of beliefs under the label of atheism or agnosticism that lumping them together just exacerbates the issue of each having such a broad slew of beliefs lumped under one banner and slapped with a label.

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And atheists are pompous asses and I don't want to share the same category with those jerks. 

[Teeth]

Agnostics are pompous asses who want to pretend like they are somehow the reasonable middle ground. First of all, you are either a carpenter or not a carpenter, if you are not a theist, then you are an atheist. Agnostics and atheists believe the exact same shit, namely, they are not theists based on what they know now. Agnostics just lie the burden of proof on the wrong end. If a god came cruising down from the sky on a golden cloud for all to see, I am pretty sure virtually all atheists would believe in him, save a few loonies of course. Does that make them agnostic now?

Actual certainty in any held belief is a pretty high bar, and it is pretty stupid to form a separate category on the lack thereof.

[Armpit_Sweat]

Agnostics are pompous asses who want to pretend like they are somehow the reasonable middle ground. First of all, you are either a carpenter or not a carpenter, if you are not a theist, then you are an atheist. Agnostics and atheists believe the exact same shit, namely, they are not theists based on what they know now. Agnostics just lie the burden of proof on the wrong end. If a god came cruising down from the sky on a golden cloud for all to see, I am pretty sure virtually all atheists would believe in him, save a few loonies of course. Does that make them agnostic now?

Actual certainty in any held belief is a pretty high bar, and it is pretty stupid to form a separate category on the lack thereof.

This makes good sense imo. +1

[Xant]

Agnostics and Atheists should not be grouped together under the same category. That shit irks me!

Atheists are just as ridiculous as fundamental christians! 

Yeah, that's what all the kids who want to impress with their knowledge say after their first visit to Wikipedia page about atheism.

Unfortunately, what Teeth said is true. 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of people who say they're atheists don't mean that it is absolutely, completely, utterly impossible for there to exist a god-like being.

This isn't a new argument.

http://forum.melee.org/general-off-topic/believe-in-god-2/msg927395/#msg927395

http://forum.melee.org/general-off-topic/believe-in-god/msg924556/#msg924556

[MacX85]

But, to be fair, it really depends what brand of atheism and what brand of agnosticism we are talking about here. But there are definitely types that are in fact mutually exclusive.

Yeah, agnostic atheism is not the same thing as gnostic atheism.

I'm an agnostic atheist towards the non specific god claim, meaning I don't know for a fact that there is or isn't any imaginable god yet I don't believe there is one.
But I can be a gnostic atheist towards a very specific god because its described properties may be contradictory or have just been disproven by science, like thunderbolts not being tossed to earth by Zeus.

[Yeldur]

Agnostics are pompous asses who want to pretend like they are somehow the reasonable middle ground. First of all, you are either a carpenter or not a carpenter, if you are not a theist, then you are an atheist. Agnostics and atheists believe the exact same shit, namely, they are not theists based on what they know now. Agnostics just lie the burden of proof on the wrong end. If a god came cruising down from the sky on a golden cloud for all to see, I am pretty sure virtually all atheists would believe in him, save a few loonies of course. Does that make them agnostic now?

Actual certainty in any held belief is a pretty high bar, and it is pretty stupid to form a separate category on the lack thereof.

Oh fuck off, Atheists hold a firm belief that there 100% is NO Gods what so ever, Agnosticism is the belief that we DO NOT KNOW. Don't throw us in the same category because we're not at all similar. You're the only one acting like a pompous ass here.

Anyone who is an Atheist SHOULD believe that there is no god at all and is simply impossible for them to exist.

Anyone who is an Agnostic SHOULD believe that there is a chance Gods do exist and a chance they do not.

If God came flying down from the sky then there's proof a God exists, thus disproving all Atheist theories, but we don't know if that will ever happen do we, no sense making up stupid speculations that will more than likely never happen, if there were Gods I'm very sure they have no interest in meeting us, we're far from worthy to meet a God/s.

There's also the added benefit that we don't have to manage the bullshit arguments between the two moronic sides who wish to fight about whether their God is real or not every minute of every day. I'm not interested in debating on something that we will more than likely NEVER know, so I choose to abstain from arguments by simply saying "I don't know."

But in reality, who the fuck gives a shit? Nobody ACTUALLY knows if a God exists or not, it's pure speculation that a God exists in the first place, the only "evidence" we have is a book written by the so called son of God. And there are many more different versions of this for each religion. And overall, if a God/s did decide to show his/her face, what exactly would that change? It's not going to affect you much other than some people will be proved right, others wrong. Anything happening other than that is pure speculation, as we have absolutely no idea what God it would be, nor what it would do.

Oh and also, calling Religion a simple enough matter to just say "YOU'RE EITHER THIS OR THIS" is beyond stupid.

[Teeth]

You're an atheist

[MacX85]

Oh fuck off, Atheists hold a firm belief that there 100% is NO Gods what so ever

No, atheism is the absence of a belief in a deity. Nothing more. It's not a belief in and of itself.

But in reality, who the fuck gives a shit? Nobody ACTUALLY knows if a God exists or not, it's pure speculation that a God exists in the first place, the only "evidence" we have is a book written by the so called son of God. And there are many more different versions of this for each religion. And overall, if a God/s did decide to show his/her face, what exactly would that change? It's not going to affect you much other than some people will be proved right, others wrong. Anything happening other than that is pure speculation, as we have absolutely no idea what God it would be, nor what it would do.

I'm sure you don't go about it in that way concerning any other superstitious claims... "Do you believe that flying invisible unicorns float above your head when you sleep?" "I don't know..."
I would say "of course I don't believe such nonsense. Why would I?"

The question whether I can know it for a fact isn't important for me. The burden of proof is on the one making the positive claim.

As to what it would change if god proved himself existing: pretty much our whole understanding of the existence of the universe. Scientists would no longer look for natural reasons for stuff but could legitimately say "It was god". Hell, I would say anybody who would not be committing his whole life on worshipping that god would be out of his mind if the stuff they say about him is really true.

And btw: the bible wasn't written by Jesus if that's what you think. It's not even written by people who knew him.

[Xant]

Oh fuck off, Atheists hold a firm belief that there 100% is NO Gods what so ever,

No.

[LordBerenger]

Most European and American nationalists who call themselves Christians aren't really Christians. They're just mere Cultural Christians but hold no faith whatsoever.

They're faker than the WWE.

[Gurgumul]

You all have a point, but what's the point of this discussion?

[Yeldur]

No, atheism is the absence of a belief in a deity. Nothing more. It's not a belief in and of itself.

I'm sure you don't go about it in that way concerning any other superstitious claims... "Do you believe that flying invisible unicorns float above your head when you sleep?" "I don't know..."
I would say "of course I don't believe such nonsense. Why would I?"

The question whether I can know it for a fact isn't important for me. The burden of proof is on the one making the positive claim.

As to what it would change if god proved himself existing: pretty much our whole understanding of the existence of the universe. Scientists would no longer look for natural reasons for stuff but could legitimately say "It was god". Hell, I would say anybody who would not be committing his whole life on worshipping that god would be out of his mind if the stuff they say about him is really true.

And btw: the bible wasn't written by Jesus if that's what you think. It's not even written by people who knew him.

No need to be so pedantic, they're virtually the same thing absence of belief or belief that there isn't, they either way come down to the same base point, which is that "There are no Gods/Deities " 

I still have no idea what I was thinking when I said Jesus wrote the Bible, I guess I hadn't really woken up properly? Either way, forgive me for my large mistake there o_O

Other superstitious claims are the same, but there's a point where logic comes into it, I mean, I could just as easily say that there's an invisible einstein controlling everyone and here's my book to prove it, but the point is that logically it's not possible, so to an extent, there has to be a point where one draws the line, yes. I can't say I would believe a person who told me there was a floating unicorn above me, but I do believe that we had to have come into this world somehow, and be it through the Big Bang or through creation of God, we'll never truly know, because we'll never know what caused the big bang. It could be a God, it could be something scientific.

You're an atheist

Keep on saying that bud, doesn't change anything.

You all have a point, but what's the point of this discussion?

Don't really know. Guess we all just have time to waste debating silly topics.