Author Topic: Real shieldwall - I am dead tired, low quality suggestion  (Read 2690 times)

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Offline Kophka

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Re: Real shieldwall - I am dead tired, low quality suggestion
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2011, 10:20:01 pm »
0
I LOVE formations and tactics with the mount and blade engine! The best suggestion I've heard so far in here was to make a "walk" key, that sets a pace irrespective of athletics or weight of equipment. This way people have a shot at moving in formation. Would probably make sense to make it a toggle key, instead of one you hold down.


Offline dodnet

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Re: Real shieldwall - I am dead tired, low quality suggestion
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2011, 10:30:06 pm »
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With this argumentation you don't need any ingame command system, ingame chat or any other device to communicate with others.

A game should not only favour those who organize in clans, it should help to communicate with everybody, ESPECIALLY the random public player, as in most cases it's them you want to talk to.

Thats not what I said. I just dont want one person controlling a bulk of ppl and moving them around like his own char. This way all others are just stupid puppets. What next - automatic attacking?  :?

In an army every single soldier is still moving on its own and not mindcontrolled by the commander. And if the soldiers arent trained to move in formation they will stumble around.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2011, 10:31:08 pm by dodnet »
The logic of war seems to be that if a belligerent can fight he will fight.

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Offline Skysong

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Re: Real shieldwall - I am dead tired, low quality suggestion
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2011, 10:33:30 pm »
+1
Quote
I want to incorporate the "casual players" into using tactics in a team, but you keep telling me to stick to clan players.

Casuals can do the job too. This is not a mmorpg where they should grind for months to become usefull. (I'm myself not a generations past pro crpg player at all)
They just need to get basics and some experience. Problem is not casuals anyway. It's randomers who charge mindlessly as village defender in strat battle. Your autoshield wall won't help them at all when they go for some kill and random fun. But it will reduce teamplay skill needed and make shieldwalls easier. It's like removing block directions so casuals don't bother learning it.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2011, 10:36:30 pm by Skysong »

Offline Joker86

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Re: Real shieldwall - I am dead tired, low quality suggestion
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2011, 10:50:29 pm »
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One last try to convince you guys  :mrgreen:


Imagine we would implement some kind of movement key that limits your movement to the lowest speed possible, so that everyone can move in the shield wall with the same speed (although not moving in formation is my problem, fighting is).

So people could - and perhaps, if you type enough in chat and coordinate things well enough, a dozen players or so notices this attempt of tactics, will - join your shield wall, in theory you could walk towards the enemy perfectly, by using their own movement keys.

Now if the first enemy approaches this line, how long do you think this formation will persist? 2 secods? 3 perhaps? As soon as the enemy is reached the formation will fall apart, and there will have been no further use than making your approach nice to watch. That's all. No real advantage for fighting was gained.


I hope you understand why I think that tweaking the movement speed of single players won't have a big impact on the fight itself. And it's the fight, I want to change, not the movement. My suggestion to combine the movement of everyone is just to create the basic condition for a controlled and thus superior melee.

And I think it would lead to sime nice tactics on the servers. Too bad I can't just put it in some "test version" and have you guys give it a shot. I bet it would not be as crappy as you imagine it.  :wink:

I just dont want one person controlling a bulk of ppl and moving them around like his own char. This way all others are just stupid puppets. What next - automatic attacking?  :?

I don't think it will be that extreme. Keep in mind that the formation can turn only very slowly, and you could make the (already slow) movement start slowly, gaining a little bit speed, and needing some time to slow down and stop again. This way you don't have the usual "dance" you see during duels, and thus you can't really say that one player controls the others like puppets. It's more like he places a flag somewhere, and everyone just follows it perfectly, but slowly as well. Finally I would not mind if the players could move a bit within their boxes, in an area of perhaps 1x1m or 1.5x1.5m.

Casuals can do the job too. This is not a mmorpg where they should grind for months to become usefull. (I'm myself not a generations past pro crpg player at all)
They just need to get basics and some experience. Problem is not casuals anyway. It's randomers who charge mindlessly as village defender in strat battle. Your autoshield wall won't help them at all when they go for some kill and random fun. But it will reduce teamplay skill needed and make shieldwalls easier. It's like removing block directions so casuals don't bother learning it.

You are not so wrong in what you are saying. I will just tell you my opinion about cRPG battles, and you tell me if our opinions differ that much:

- Currently in most cases you have both teams charge each other in a loose formation, most players on one hand stick to the crowd, on the other hand they don't care much about what the others do. It's like "everyone care for his own business, but I would like to care for my business near you guys."
- It is very difficult to address most of the own team by chat, trying to suggest to attack at a certain flank or something like that. Usually if someone suggest a good tactic one third listens to it, the rest just doesn't care, which splits up the team and makes things worse. (IMHO that's the fault of the 2/3, not of the 1/3)
- If you would give the player a cool looking feature (so that everyone immediately sees and knows what's done over there), and if it would grant some serious benefits (e.g. attacking enemies through the shield of a teammate from safe distance - I mean how cool is that?  :lol: ) people would think: "Oh hey, yes! I want, too!" and join in.
- Due to the fixed formation, you don't have to care for those "sheep" and "lemmings" and "retards" or whatever you see on the servers any more, the feature will automatically make them do something useful. Simultaneously they are not that much puppets, as they are only moved where they are needed, and finally they can always leave, whenever they want.
- This way I hope one of those who always charge on their own into the next group of enemies, with stats like 2:9, will do something useful for the other players, and eventually have some fun themselves. If they don't, they are always free to simply walk past a shield wall under construction.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2011, 10:52:01 pm by Joker86 »
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline FRANK_THE_TANK

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Re: Real shieldwall - I am dead tired, low quality suggestion
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2011, 11:08:19 pm »
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I vote no, big old no. If you want shield walls play strat or VikingR.

You live in Europe vikingR has shield wall Sundays.

There should be no automation you should have to rely on the skill of the players and they're desire to work together.

We need 1) A walk key that lowers agi to 3 2) A nice bonus to shield stranth and coverage. It could however not have to be perfectly connected players to form the wall. If there are gaps allowed, say the size of half a man, pikes could swing through and keeping in formation would be a bit easier.
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Offline Joker86

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Re: Real shieldwall - I am dead tired, low quality suggestion
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2011, 11:20:29 pm »
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I vote no, big old no. If you want shield walls play strat or VikingR.

You live in Europe vikingR has shield wall Sundays.

I don't like VikingR, and it has no persistent character system. And I can't play strat as I never know when I can be online and when not.

Anyway, answering a suggestion in a suggestion subforum with "if you want XYZ then go play YXZ" renders such a forum rather useless, don't you think so?

There should be no automation you should have to rely on the skill of the players and they're desire to work together.

Errrm... no, thanks  :P

I actually don't understand why a game can't do some things for you, you would usually have no problems doing yourself in RL, but with the limited controls of a PC game would be rather difficult to do ingame.

Again you guys don't take into concern how incredibly difficult it is in cRPG to fight an enemy and simultaneously stay in line with the guys to your left and right.

We need 1) A walk key that lowers agi to 3 2) A nice bonus to shield stranth and coverage. It could however not have to be perfectly connected players to form the wall. If there are gaps allowed, say the size of half a man, pikes could swing through and keeping in formation would be a bit easier.

1st: in my solution pikes can attack past the man in the front, too.
2nd: approaching with the same speed will only make it look a bit prettier, that's all. It will have no impact on the melee, where the formation will inevitably break up as long as the players can move freely. Because they will. And that's what I don't want them to. I want to add a complete new aspect to the battle gamemode.
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Kophka

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Re: Real shieldwall - I am dead tired, low quality suggestion
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2011, 12:17:11 am »
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He has a good point Joker, this IS a multi-player game. The trick is in giving players an OPTION to march in a shield wall, not forcing them to. What we need is a way to overcome the differences in gear weight and athletics so that we can march in step when we decide to, not when it's forced on us by a guy who thinks he's playing single-player. :D Take this and run with it, but keep it within reason, no one wants to lose autonomy in a video game by force.

Offline Joker86

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Re: Real shieldwall - I am dead tired, low quality suggestion
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2011, 12:30:36 am »
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Well, it's not like he presses a magical button and suddenly you are imprisoned in a shield wall - you have to decide yourself whether to join or not  :wink:
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Glyph

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Re: Real shieldwall - I am dead tired, low quality suggestion
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2011, 09:55:41 pm »
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great idea, and not ruining the rest of the battlefield! i'm all in for more tactics and formations! i'd like to hear more ideas form you, great discribtion too!
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Re: Real shieldwall - I am dead tired, low quality suggestion
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2011, 10:25:34 pm »
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Offline HarunYahya

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Re: Real shieldwall - I am dead tired, low quality suggestion
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2011, 11:06:55 pm »
-1
Are you retards ?
Can't you form a proper shield wall without invisible boxes to guide you ?
No for this suggestion because this is not a game to improve "special" people's recovery.

Offline Osiris

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Re: Real shieldwall - I am dead tired, low quality suggestion
« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2011, 03:48:20 pm »
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you cant form proper shieldwalls in crpg for very simple reasons :D

1. you cant attack while in a proper shield wall, Attacking drops your block and the wall is broken.
2. you cant form lines like a true shieldwall because you cant push the guy in front forwards :D

Shieldwalls are fine if your standing still but if you move or attack it turns back into chaos
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Offline leviatan

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Re: Real shieldwall - I am dead tired, low quality suggestion
« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2011, 04:42:32 pm »
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s

Offline Skysong

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Re: Real shieldwall - I am dead tired, low quality suggestion
« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2011, 05:10:34 pm »
+1
Can't you form a proper shield wall without invisible boxes to guide you ?

They can't. Welcome to Play Station generation.

Offline Glyph

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Re: Real shieldwall - I am dead tired, low quality suggestion
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2011, 07:48:58 pm »
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Are you retards ?
Can't you form a proper shield wall without invisible boxes to guide you ?
No for this suggestion because this is not a game to improve "special" people's recovery.
you can't hodl a decent shieldwall while walking towards the enemy line. you could've thought that one through a bit more...
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