Author Topic: The classes and the maintenance (upkeep discussion)  (Read 5762 times)

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Offline Engine

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Re: The classes and the maintenance (upkeep discussion)
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2011, 09:00:02 pm »
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You can't play your "elephant" anymore?  Good.  Upkeep is fine and doing it's job perfectly, especially if it pisses you off.  Go GTX already and spare us your idiocy.

WORD UP. 100% correct, Gorath. We should be thankful to be in a game where the devs laugh at this guy as much as the rest of us.

Upkeep needs tweaking, but the OP has managed to gloss over every legitimate upkeep issue and instead make the most incomparably insane cases, to justify him using his black armor+elephant+noskill 'style' of play.

Your trolling needs WAY more effort than just a lengthy post, man. If you were good, you'd come up with only mildly false arguments that could look true on the surface. Sad, sad, sad.

Offline Matey

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Re: The classes and the maintenance (upkeep discussion)
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2011, 09:29:06 pm »
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I would actually have to agree. He presented this in a rather outrageous manner, but I find it ridiculous that I can wear heavy-medium armor with 3 weapons and a shield all the time and earn money. This is hardly what upkeep should be allowing, no? I've been using my full heavy plate set just to feel like my money is being used, even though I do poorly in plate. Meanwhile, you see excellent cav like Rohypnol who have to be naked with one weapon to afford being on their horse for long. Admittedly, he uses the expensive Courser, but I still find it a bit silly how expensive they are. IMO, increase upkeep significantly on footmen and archers.

just to point out... Rohypnol is usually top 3 on his team while running around naked on a courser with a light lance. cavalry is very powerful in this game, and the current way of balancing that is the cost. it is very expensive to rock a horse and heavy armour and a great lance and a shield and a sword... but it needs to be expensive. if everyone could afford to do it all the time, then everyone would. ever been a server where 90% of the enemy team is cav? it sucks... alot. there is an easy solution for those who want to do cavalry... play a low cost build for one gen, save up a ton of cash, do cav the next gen. look at goretooth, he does archery gen every now and then to build up funds for his normal build. maybe you will argue archery doesnt cost enough, but you can put on black armour and grab a bec while using a bow effectively... its just not worth it.

one solution could be to have armour classes. instead of cost being related directly to the effectiveness of the armour... we could instead have it reflecting the efficiency of the armour. we could have light armour which varies in weight from say 0.5 to 10 weight... and goes from say 50gold to 15000 gold... then medium could be 11-20 or so, which would cost say 200-25000 gold, then heavy could be 20-40 weight and cost 500-50000 gold... this could actually be pretty sweet because what we could do with it... is have the strength requirments be much higher for the different classes of armour. say light takes 3-12 strength, medium 12-18 and heavy 18-24... also we could have the cheaper armour have crappier weight to body armour ratios compared to the more expensive... example: the 500gold heavy armour might be 40 weight for 50 body armour, where the 50000gold one might be 25 weight for 55 body armour. one is clearly better... but the cost is very high thus making it hard for players to maintain. i might work on this idea a bit more if people express interest.

some examples
light armour1 50gold 10 weight 20 body armour. its cheap and easy to maintain, but weighs a lot for what it does.
light armour 10 15,000 gold 7 weight 30 body armour. its expensive, but offers better protection at reduced weight.

medium armour4 4500 gold 17 weight 38 body armour.
medium armour 8 20000 gold 17 weight 44 body armour.

this would make it so that some armour is superior to others... except that it would also make money more important... this could also be used to allow people to play styles they want for a cheaper cost. if people want to wear the cheap heavy armour... they can have good defense but will be very slow and ponderous. a real trade off. this could also balance horses better... introduce some geniunely shitty horses that dont cost much. they would be easy to deal with, but hey its a horse... or is it? armoured donkey, 5000gold. 20 speed 100hp 50 armour 10 charge damage. 5 manuevre.

Offline UrLukur

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Re: The classes and the maintenance (upkeep discussion)
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2011, 10:13:11 pm »
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Cavalry have heavy lance of win, they need nerf, not buff.
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Offline Ghazan

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Re: The classes and the maintenance (upkeep discussion)
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2011, 01:04:34 am »
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Ive seen Rohynol and Ruffies who always go as naked cav, but they dont have to. 

They probably do it just for fun or something as their gear loadoat is probably less than 30k.

Theyre good cav, but fairly useless once dehorsed cuz of their nakedness and lack of alt weapon. 

I dont know what theyre saving up for by always being naked cuz I never see them in any armour whatsoever. 

Offline Kung Fu Jesus

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Re: The classes and the maintenance (upkeep discussion)
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2011, 08:22:33 pm »
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They wear plate/transitional occasionally. And aren't 90% of cav useless once dehorsed? Its hard to escape the mob that descends.

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Offline UrLukur

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Re: The classes and the maintenance (upkeep discussion)
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2011, 08:23:52 pm »
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They wear plate/transitional occasionally. And aren't 90% of cav useless once dehorsed? Its hard to escape the mob that descends.

Play better, top cav don't have this problem. Only retarded cavalry have it.
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Offline EponiCo

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Re: The classes and the maintenance (upkeep discussion)
« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2011, 09:10:55 pm »
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Every cav who likes to take risks (in other words isn't a lamer who only runs away when you look at him) has it once in a while. But a footman isn't much better off when mobbed the majority of times...
Unless you avoid mounted duels like hell or always win them, you'll be often dismounted and can just fight as a normal footman, except for weaker weapons and a few skillpoints. But that's the price.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2011, 09:12:02 pm by EponiCo »

Offline Riddaren

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Re: The classes and the maintenance (upkeep discussion)
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2011, 09:39:29 pm »
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Real elephants are cool but I really don't miss the elephant and tincan era of this mod.
Thanks chadz for making this game more fun.

Offline Bothersome_Aldryk

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Re: The classes and the maintenance (upkeep discussion)
« Reply #38 on: February 16, 2011, 09:49:31 pm »
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TBH I just want my gear to cost more.

Offline Rhaelys

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Re: The classes and the maintenance (upkeep discussion)
« Reply #39 on: February 18, 2011, 05:02:52 am »
+1
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Offline Ganon

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Re: The classes and the maintenance (upkeep discussion)
« Reply #40 on: February 18, 2011, 05:26:16 am »
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TBH I just want my gear to cost more.

This means you are free to use the gear you like best for your build, while others can't,  i guess you think this is positive because it gives you an advantage, but it isn't fair.

Offline Thomek

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Re: The classes and the maintenance (upkeep discussion)
« Reply #41 on: February 18, 2011, 11:24:24 am »
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Maintenance system is there for a reason.

Before it, there was much less variety among players, and everyone seemed to end up with milanese and a big sword or polearm, or on a charger, or god forbid the lvl40+ heavy horse archers.. Even I had a build which was pretty insane back then, although the gear was cheap.

Anyway, wanted to comment on Mateys idea:
"one solution could be to have armour classes. instead of cost being related directly to the effectiveness of the armour... we could instead have it reflecting the efficiency of the armour. we could have light armour which varies in weight from say 0.5 to 10 weight... and goes from say 50gold to 15000 gold... then medium could be 11-20 or so, which would cost say 200-25000 gold, then heavy could be 20-40 weight and cost 500-50000 gold... this could actually be pretty sweet because what we could do with it... is have the strength requirments be much higher for the different classes of armour. say light takes 3-12 strength, medium 12-18 and heavy 18-24... also we could have the cheaper armour have crappier weight to body armour ratios compared to the more expensive... example: the 500gold heavy armour might be 40 weight for 50 body armour, where the 50000gold one might be 25 weight for 55 body armour. one is clearly better... but the cost is very high thus making it hard for players to maintain. i might work on this idea a bit more if people express interest."

I also had that idea a long time ago, and it is interesting. One very important thing to note however, that the main drawback of heavy armor is a drastic reduction in maneuverability and speed. (except price ofc.)

Heavy Armor on a horse, effectively removes this drawback, so the minmaxing cav players would just take the cheapest (with the most weight) heavy armor and not pay the "price" in maneuverability loss.
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Offline Siiem

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Re: The classes and the maintenance (upkeep discussion)
« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2011, 12:27:20 pm »
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I have noticed you in game, you are a very good player.

Good to see that you are not only a very good player (some sort of a Nerd/ Freak like many others in this community), but also a very intelligent person. =)

lol he agrees with your opinion (granted a stupid one) and he's intelligent. Well, well... thats logic for you :lol:

Some days ago I lost 20k of gold within 3 days using 51k worth of equipment. Now I use 53k worth of equipemnt and I have gained 35k gold. Seems extremely random to me this system.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2011, 12:28:43 pm by Siiem »

Offline Kafein

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Re: The classes and the maintenance (upkeep discussion)
« Reply #43 on: February 18, 2011, 12:38:46 pm »
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If you get the same k/d ratio with all of those builds I would suggest you play naked, seems like there's no difference between heavily armored and not armored for you? O.o
*facepalm*

I suggest you try to make some honest statistics...

Wearing heavy armor doesn't give any particular advantage on the field. The high armor value is contered by the terrible lack of speed.

Punishing plate users (their "style") by having ridiculous prices for even low tier plate armors was the worst move ever. I think michael doesn't lie when he says he's doing roughly the same k/d with all these classes. But that's not really a reason to change the prices for the anime-looking stuff of the first "class". The problem being, bump cavalry is so noobish that most probably anyone doing it will end up with the same k/d. But other classes are much more skill linked, thus you can have roughly the same k/d with a super costly stuff and a super cheap one, if you are skilled enough (and trust me, new_player_FTW isn't really a total noob).

Light armored people seem not willing to recall that prepatch, most people weren't using plate armors, simply because it's not optimal for most builds.
In fact it was realistic in the way that heavy charge style cavalry used heavy armors like they did in the middle ages, and footmen had generally lower armor, for better movement and attack speed. Now everyone is forced to use light or (if the rest of their equipment is cheap) medium armor.

It's perfectly logical ninja's and archers don't complain about upkeep, and flame/troll everyone trying to make it fair. I suggest we completly exclude those people who don't know what they are speaking about from this discussion, as all what they are doing is pure lobbying.

But don't read me wrong : there were some big issues post-patch. Like 40's armored HA, Plated helicopters (Recall of PANZERMARINE_Georges ?), snipers of death-comes-from-nowhere... Those were all solved by the retirement redesign and the new xp curve.

But what did upkeep solved ? Absolutly nothing. On top of that it created global issues very complicated to solve without removing upkeep. Now every succesfull noobish-proof (in the sense "even a noob can play it succesfully") build has all it's wpf points in one domain. Melee characters usually don't go over 15 strenght, because plate armors are useless and you can reliably two shot anyone with 5 PS. Now everyone tries to be as fast as possible because nothing else is important. Except even more lame crushthrough builds. So in average, any archer and even more, thrower will have more strenght than a melee char  :?.

In the long term, upkeep is decreasing diversity on the battlefield. Just because 1) you can only upkeep the half of the armors you could pre-upkeep 2) there are very few cost-effective armors, and players start to know what these are 3) Melee characters try to go for as much equipment value as they can, thus increasing their armor up to a "limit" depending on their weapon loadout (but the total upkeep value of the weapon sets of the various melee classes are roughly the same). Many players do this, resulting in the vast majority of melee having armors in the same tier. Same thing for horses. Most horses are from tier 2. People that are playing cav over their income (or with little to no armor) use either sarranid or courser. Trolls play in cloth during 3 rounds then use their plate charger and black plate set for one round. That's another retarded effect of upkeep.

Offline Gorath

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Re: The classes and the maintenance (upkeep discussion)
« Reply #44 on: February 18, 2011, 07:20:20 pm »
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I suggest you try to make some honest statistics...

Wearing heavy armor doesn't give any particular advantage on the field. The high armor value is contered by the terrible lack of speed.
What?  Plate doesn't punish speed ENOUGH if anything.  It's all advantage no drawback and yes I used to be a plate crutcher back when the churburg first got added.

Punishing plate users (their "style") by having ridiculous prices for even low tier plate armors was the worst move ever.
It's logical.  Plate armor was only afforded by the super wealthy when it was in use.  Really expensive shit costs more to upkeep.  Logic.


Light armored people seem not willing to recall that prepatch, most people weren't using plate armors, simply because it's not optimal for most builds.
Where did you play?  Other than ninjas, peasants and a few players that refused to crutch on it everyone ran around in the heaviest armor they could buy.  Every other person was wearing 50+ armor "plate" with a pike of tears and sniper x-bow.  Or some variation thereof.  Plate was more common than anything else on the field.

It's perfectly logical ninja's and archers don't complain about upkeep, and flame/troll everyone trying to make it fair.
Isn't what you're doing simply pure lobbying?  It is fair currently.  I don't understand how you think it's not "fair".  If you wear expensive shit, you pay more in upkeep.  That's about as fair as it gets.  Top tier shit costs more gold.  What could be more fair?  Especially since in the realm of armors there are hardly any drawbacks at all and it's quite crutchy.  Upkeep has brought an ultimate fairness to the field.

But what did upkeep solved ? Absolutly nothing. On top of that it created global issues very complicated to solve without removing upkeep. Now every succesfull noobish-proof (in the sense "even a noob can play it succesfully") build has all it's wpf points in one domain. Melee characters usually don't go over 15 strenght, because plate armors are useless and you can reliably two shot anyone with 5 PS. Now everyone tries to be as fast as possible because nothing else is important. Except even more lame crushthrough builds. So in average, any archer and even more, thrower will have more strenght than a melee char  :?.
Again I wonder what game you're playing.  Most people since the patch have realized that more str is far > than more agi nowadays.  Even 1hers, who used to be agi based or balanced are going str nowadays.  Hell Balb himself even redid his build for more strength, manofwar too.  Hell I redesigned all of my characters to add more strength into the mix.  The patch made it so that there's a far less chance of running into some agi-whore that breaks animations which means you don't have to worry about agi as much and can go for more 1-hit power in strength.  No, I find that what's going on in the field is pretty much the opposite of what you describe.  More people seem to be going with higher strength so they can 1-shot more often.

In the long term, upkeep is decreasing diversity on the battlefield. Many players do this, resulting in the vast majority of melee having armors in the same tier.

The same tier constitutes quite a huge variety in armor.  Low and middle tier armors are on the field, which is a far cry better than pre-patch when it was pretty much plate everywhere since there's no drawback to it (unless you're an archer).  But, to each their own.  I find far more diversity on the field nowadays than any pre-patch period other than during the peasant wars.
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