Other polearms that need to be 3 slots...

[Joker86]

You really seems to hate polearm users. 

I now played pikeman some time, and although my skills are of course below average as I played only little in the last few months, I can already say that pikeman is the least rewarding class. You are everyone's bitch, all you can do is frighten cav away (without a chance of killing them) and perhaps support some melee fighters from the second line. But as soon as someone decides you're gonna have to die... you will die! If someone gets past the tip of your pike you are inevitably dead. And every noob without any idea of manual blocking can get past your tip.

And then I must read your reasoning for making the long awlpike a three slot weapon. It's basically "It's because it would be the next weaker weapon they would choose if they didn't want to waste three slots."

I mean: what kind of crappy argument is this? How about putting all spear like polearms to three slots, because once the long awlpike would be three slots you would have the awlpike, battle fork and the war spear. And so on. And so on.

Long awlpikeHorn bow is the next 2 slot replacement for standard pikers longbowmen and should be classed the same.

It's just an invalid argument.

These polearms should be 3 slots because they are exceptional in their categories and therefore should be 3 slots to promote the use of alternative weapons in the same category.

And upkeep/item difficulty does nothing?

A practice longsword and a flamberge take 2 slots both. A cudgel and a long espada eslavona take one slot each. How about making flamberges take 3 slots, too, and long espada taking 2? I mean: if pikemen are to be nerfed that way, what about all the other classes?

I fear you didn't calculate or even think about balance properly, you just posted a very biased view on things, and although you should have the common " 'YES' to every nerf for classes others than mine" and the general "Polearm users are are stagger glitch abusers!" - bonuses for your vote you "only" have a 60-40 majority.

Your suggestion doesn't follow the basic rule of balancing to judge things in relation to all other things in the game, you just decided to make polearms worse. Your argumentation is more than flawed. That's why I think (or better: hope, as I never know what the developers will commit next as crime) you suggestion will never be realised. In fact I hope they remove the three slots from pikes, as on EU1 with about 100 players I see only about one pike per team. Which is totally screwed in relation to its dangerousness, compared to two handed swords, halberds, bows, crossbows or horses+lance.

Where did you get that? That might have been the case for the first few months, but I think we can safely say, that that era ended with upkeep patch. The patch that included slots was just a cherry on top IMO, because the trend always was that, while you could customize your character however you wanted, the general feel was that you shouldn't be able to fill more than one role effectively while on the battlefield. That's why we got rid of pocket pikes, sniper crossbows as sidearms etc.

You are not limited in terms of what build you wanna go, and that's fine. You are limited for a particular spawn, meaning that if you wanna spawn with a pike, you take on the anti-cav role, being the only and best weapon against cav while also being super awesome support, but will have to live the fact, that if someone will get personal with you, you will have to whip out your one hander or die miserably.
And in my opinion, that is fine too.

EIT: Rephrased.

You are right about not beeing totally free in character choice, which is a good thing, IMHO. But you can make almost any class a hybrid, except of pikeman, because having a one handed weapon and STILL having to block manually and hide from missiles seems... crappy to me, and stands in no relation to the effectivity of a pikeman.

All classes can have viable hybrids, except of pikeman. And pikemen are everything but a strong class like 2hd infantry, cavalry or archers.

[Cepeshi]

I have a suggestion, make all the PD 6 bow 3 slots, sounds fair, ey?

[Nemeth]

.

[Konrax]

You really seems to hate polearm users. 

I now played pikeman some time, and although my skills are of course below average as I played only little in the last few months, I can already say that pikeman is the least rewarding class. You are everyone's bitch, all you can do is frighten cav away (without a chance of killing them) and perhaps support some melee fighters from the second line. But as soon as someone decides you're gonna have to die... you will die! If someone gets past the tip of your pike you are inevitably dead. And every noob without any idea of manual blocking can get past your tip.

And then I must read your reasoning for making the long awlpike a three slot weapon. It's basically "It's because it would be the next weaker weapon they would choose if they didn't want to waste three slots."

I mean: what kind of crappy argument is this? How about putting all spear like polearms to three slots, because once the long awlpike would be three slots you would have the awlpike, battle fork and the war spear. And so on. And so on.

It's just an invalid argument.

And upkeep/item difficulty does nothing?

A practice longsword and a flamberge take 2 slots both. A cudgel and a long espada eslavona take one slot each. How about making flamberges take 3 slots, too, and long espada taking 2? I mean: if pikemen are to be nerfed that way, what about all the other classes?

I fear you didn't calculate or even think about balance properly, you just posted a very biased view on things, and although you should have the common " 'YES' to every nerf for classes others than mine" and the general "Polearm users are are stagger glitch abusers!" - bonuses for your vote you "only" have a 60-40 majority.

Your suggestion doesn't follow the basic rule of balancing to judge things in relation to all other things in the game, you just decided to make polearms worse. Your argumentation is more than flawed. That's why I think (or better: hope, as I never know what the developers will commit next as crime) you suggestion will never be realised. In fact I hope they remove the three slots from pikes, as on EU1 with about 100 players I see only about one pike per team. Which is totally screwed in relation to its dangerousness, compared to two handed swords, halberds, bows, crossbows or horses+lance.

You are right about not beeing totally free in character choice, which is a good thing, IMHO. But you can make almost any class a hybrid, except of pikeman, because having a one handed weapon and STILL having to block manually and hide from missiles seems... crappy to me, and stands in no relation to the effectivity of a pikeman.

All classes can have viable hybrids, except of pikeman. And pikemen are everything but a strong class like 2hd infantry, cavalry or archers.

LOLLLLLLL you really don't understand the point I tried to make.

Long Awlpike is A PIKE AND ALSO SHOULD BE CLASSED THE SAME WITH ALL THE OTHER PIKES.

IT EVEN HAS THE WORD PIKE IN THE NAME<><<<><!!@<!>>!!

Amazing information isnt it, as far as its PIKE role is concerned, it is the shortest, fastest, highest damage pike class weapon in the polearm weapons group and since it is just as viable, if not more viable then other pikes, it should be treated the same.

Just to make sure its superduper clear, I will spell it out for you.

Pikes = 3 slots

Long AwlPIKE should also be 3 slots because its just as viable as the other pikes.

The normal awlpike is short enough imho to not HAVE to be classed the same.


I don't hate polearms, I just think that there is an imbalance in their favour.

[Konrax]

Oh an just for the record, a lot of the players who use these weapons effectively don't carry any other weapon at all anyways.

Its the posers who use these weapons with becs and poleaxes and just switch out that I want to limit.

[Joker86]

Long Awlpike is A PIKE AND ALSO SHOULD BE CLASSED THE SAME WITH ALL THE OTHER PIKES.

IT EVEN HAS THE WORD PIKE IN THE NAME<><<<><!!@<!>>!!

I wouldn't go balancing items by their NAMES.   

Amazing information isnt it, as far as its PIKE role is concerned, it is the shortest, fastest, highest damage pike class weapon in the polearm weapons group and since it is just as viable, if not more viable then other pikes, it should be treated the same.

Just to make sure its superduper clear, I will spell it out for you.

Pikes = 3 slots

Long AwlPIKE should also be 3 slots because its just as viable as the other pikes.

There is a BIG difference between the long spear and the pike on one, the long awlpike on the other hand, and this difference is the weapon length. It's what actually represents the difference between a spear and a pike.

Pike has length 300, long spear at least 245, whereas the long awlpike has only 185. Just to compare, a heavy lance has 190, which is LONGER!!!. Which means the biggest advantage of the pikes, their longer reach, is much less given in the case of the long awlkpike. You could lose a duel against a decent cavalryman with a long awlpike, which is not possible with the two long pikes. Although the long awlpike is CALLED a pike, technically (concerning ingame mechanics and "classes") it's a spear. Even the bamboo spear (200 length) is more of a pike than the long awlpike.

And who said that all weapons of one class (and I still think long Awlpike is not a pike weapon) have to be three slots? We have bows with 2 slots and with 1 slot. Should we change all bows to two slots now, because they are bows?

You will say now "of course not, because the weaker bows are weak anough to only take one slot." Sure, that's right. But the purpose of pikes is to stop cavalry and to attack from the second line. Both things can't be done really effectively with 185 reach, at least not as effective as with the two big pikes. Which again speaks against making the long awlpike a three slot weapon.

I don't hate polearms, I just think that there is an imbalance in their favour.

In the favour of pikemen? Come on! They are weak, poor bastards who decided to support their team. Never ever have pikemen topped the scoreboard or the amount of pikemen having decided battles (in difference to cavalry, archers or heavy infantry).

And I think most imbalances are in favour of archers, not polearms. That's why I am not convinced of you not being biased.


Still you didn't answer me why the top items of the spear/pike class should have three slots, while all the other top weapons of other classes should not.

And the least kills as a pikeman is cavalry, usually it's supporting someone in melee. (Which, I repeat, only works well and with minimal danger with long reach, bigger than 200) Yes, pikes are great in supporting someone. A two hander is only half as good in supporting as the pike is, but guess what, it is three times better in fighting on your own. At least.

I demand to make the pike 2 slots again. Because there are far more powerful items than pikes. Don't tell me it's the best item in the game and thus should have most item slots. Really.

[Nemeth]

You highly underestimate the power of pike. When clan battles and tournaments were common (on EU at least), you could see Shogunates using pikes effectively and they were pretty much destroying everyone they came up against. I would dare to say pike is one of the best weapons in game, but only if you can actually use it, and your team knows how to use it.
Obviously, in pub games you dont see the power of pikes, but that doesnt mean its bad.

[Kophka]

I personally think that heavy lance should be a 3 slot weapon. It is the single most common cavalry weapon, with (observed, mind you) seemingly 99% of cavalry lancers using it. I'd love to see more variety promoted, and the other two lances being used more often.

On the argument about pikes, it is actually an extremely common weapon on the NA servers. The players over here have evolved pike fighting into a duelist's weapon, with lightning speed blocks and spinning and dancing. It accounts for huge amounts of kills on a daily basis on NA_1.

[Turboflex]

Yeah we have some ace pikers/long spear guys in our clan and they are killing machines, topping charts on battle server. Even solo they are very good duelists, there are all kinds of twist or jump spin moves using M&B's whacky physics that basically allow them to hit people close range. There's a bunch of these guys on NA servers and they've very formidable killers, a world of difference between dedicated pikers who know all the tricks of the weapon and us normal dopes who just pick it up and stab a bit but then get killed whenever someone gets inside the range, those guys will still own you at close range unless you are extremely patient.

These guys were actually kind of pleased when it was bumped to 3 slots, cuz it stopped phony pikers who spawn with one but have a bec to pull out when they get into a real fight.

[Joker86]

Okay, two things to answer you guys, as I believe what you say.

1.: Are those guys the measure we should balance to accordingly, making the pike (/spear), in my eyes one of the "backbone" weapons of infantry, be balanced that way to be only viable weapons for top of the notch gamers?

2.: How would those players perform with a two handed weapon, with shield and 1hd, as cavalry or as archers? Unless they would have worse results with all of those weapons (which I doubt heavily) I see no reason to especially nerf pikes and leave all other weapons as they are.

[Konrax]

Huscarl shield is 2 slots, take any other 1 handed weapon and that makes it 3. Not counting 0 slot weapons here.

I use a knightly heater, and I would prefer other changes to pike class weapons other then making them 3 slots, but if nothing else can be done then this is the only viable solution.

[Kophka]

Okay, two things to answer you guys, as I believe what you say.

1.: Are those guys the measure we should balance to accordingly, making the pike (/spear), in my eyes one of the "backbone" weapons of infantry, be balanced that way to be only viable weapons for top of the notch gamers?

2.: How would those players perform with a two handed weapon, with shield and 1hd, as cavalry or as archers? Unless they would have worse results with all of those weapons (which I doubt heavily) I see no reason to especially nerf pikes and leave all other weapons as they are.

The thing is, it's not just 2 or 3 of them, though. There are usually 6 or 7 of the  on the top of the scoreboards, with many other just below them. If it was only 1 or 2, I could understand that it shouldn't be considered in the argument, but it's a very very common thing. These aren't just the top notch gamers, these are just people that have used a pike long enough to know the broken mechanics of it (mechanics that there is no intent to address, the 3 slot bandage seems to be the end-all solution for it). The sad fact is that the pike makes a great normal weapon, far beyond it's intent to stop/rape cavalry.

[Joker86]

Well, then we seem to have different experiences with pikes, perhaps due to different servers? Because on EU1 you see about 1-2 pikes per team, and they are everything but the top of the scoreboard. That's all I can say from my point of view, of course, as only special server statistics could provide a better image. Perhaps it would be an idea to count the times upkeep is paid for a certain weapon, this should be trackable more easily than caused damage on the server (which I heard was untrackable at all).    :

[Smoothrich]

Well, then we seem to have different experiences with pikes, perhaps due to different servers? Because on EU1 you see about 1-2 pikes per team, and they are everything but the top of the scoreboard. That's all I can say from my point of view, of course, as only special server statistics could provide a better image. Perhaps it would be an idea to count the times upkeep is paid for a certain weapon, this should be trackable more easily than caused damage on the server (which I heard was untrackable at all).    :

That's because the EU metagame is at least 6 months behind NA at any given time.  You guys still max weapon master, don't spam long polearms, and I wouldn't be surprised if the "pro cav's" horse was still the arabian.  Its no surprise when I hop on my champion cataphract and go lancing on EU_1 I feel like I am riding a modern battle tank through some Ethiopian peasant village.

Also yes, balance should be done based on top players in their class, because a new or bad player will die to anything anyways, but top players will gravitate towards OP weapons with builds to compliment them and start ripping apart servers, then soon the hordes of people will start copying them.

[Turboflex]

The spin/twist moves basically give the weapon full power short range hits. It's not earth shattering because if you're patient you can still beat them (in the end, they can still only do thrust attacks, so easy to block), but most people don't know their tricks well, or are impatient and play them too agressively which plays into their hands. So the weapon really isn't vulnerable at short range for someone who knows how to use it, and then add in the support long range hits and anti-cav it's a very powerful weapon and you can get a lot of kills.

And yeah, you have to use this as the measure to balance it, because anything else would make it way too overpowered. Would those guys do better with a normal polearm or 2h? probably not, you can really rack up kills with a pike/long spear playing support behind a heavy guy, and they don't have a huge close range downside that people assume they have. I don't think stats need to be shown to prove this...just come to NA server and watch some pike guys like walt-f4, relit, some ATS guys, etc. twist and jump-spin around and do close range hit while they also use their long range too.