Stamina Bar Needed

[Helbrass]

Don't know why you're having trouble, to be honest. The game gets pretty laggy with 100 people though, and lag can break anything. Maybe you should meet someone on duel servers for both cRPG and Native and see how the spam feels in both mods. Fraps it and post too.

It's not a game breaking issue for me, though. I do fairly well against people when I use sword + board unless it's somebody who just can't take a break on mouse 1. While yes it is annoying to basically be stuck with the shield up, if it's anyone else I can almost always find a way to get at least one hit in.

TBH I think my problem is I don't focus enough on just fighting with sword + board. I've spent most of my time using spears and pikes with the shield, and everyone knows how easy that is to block.

[zagibu]

arguments against:
-there are easier and beter ways of reducing spam.
-would require a complete overhaul, more rebalacing of stats, in other words lots of work for the devs.
-if done wrong would completely ruin the combat system.
-if done right could stil completely change a perfectly good combat system.

The fact that there are easier and beter ways of fixing the problem, ways that don't potentially screw everything up, is enough to not want a stamina bar. Why a complicated solution when there are easier ones?

1. Elaborate
2. True. So what? I'm not saying DO IT NAO, I'm just saying I think this would be the best solution. Maybe the effort needed is too high, let the devs decide.
3. True. So what? Every major balance change has the potential to ruin everything. Just do it right.
4. True. It needs change, that's why the suggestion comes up times and times again.

My main opposition to a stamina system is the idea that stamina could prevent you from blocking. The "perfect defense" mechanic in Warband gives it a very high skill ceiling and allows for tense, extended fights between good players.

It could. Then people would complain and it would be rebalanced. That's how things work. Don't oppose change because it could change things, that's the whole idea of change.

Because it's either going to break melee in general (for instance, not being able to swing enough times to deal with a few people), going to introduce erm unintended consequences depending on what all falls within the stamina system, for instance running, etc), while not fixing any real or percieved problems.

That the problems are real has already been established. You can have a different opinion, but then I don't understand why you repeat yourself. Now that it would break melee in general is bullshit, on what authority do you make this prophecy? Not being able to swing enough times to deal with a few people? That's spam. Deal with one dude, block some, deal with the next. If you really think you can just swing constantly to deal with multiple people, you are a spammer par excellence and I understand why you oppose the suggestion.

For instance, what you mostly classify as spam are, in a single fight, 2-3 swings, since that's enough to kill someone who doesn't block. So, in order to fix that, you'd have to do, what, make someone swing and take a breather then? Doesn't make sense, and would really break combat.

Where exactly did you find this classification? What i want to stop is an exploited build with a long fast weapon that erratically runs over the battlefield constantly swinging left and right and climbing to the top of the scoreboard. Have you ever tried the long hafted blade? With the right build, you can spam that thing so fast that people who get hit can not even recover from the stun to block.

Feinting? Ok, if you made feinting take stamina, you do solve the annoying "lolfeintspam" (well, personally I'm not bothered by it, since I like long weapons so people don't get to do that on me, but it is generally annoying and a pain to watch), but it doesn't solve the funny feinting speed of long and heavy weapons (which, unlike attacking which is generally fine, seems just physically impossible).

I'm not sure about feinting.

I just don't see the :point:. The only people who get purely spammed are turtling shielders, people who don't counterattack, peasants and wooden structures. And I see potential bad side-effects.

If you wanted to discuss specific balance issues with xyz stat/weapon/mechanic, it'd make more sense then proposing a stamina system to stop "spam".

Also, if you want to propose a mechanic to combat something which is very subjective (eg, "spam"), you have to precisely describe what exactly is spam and how do you propose it should work.


Tbh, it's much easier to "screw up" with a shield+1h vs a 2h/polearmer then it is to screw up with a 2h/polearm, in my experience. To fight with a 1h/shield takes a different set of skills then to fight with a 2h weapon.

That said, I find it :easier: to do reasonably well with a 2h/polearm in melee at lower levels. On the other hand I only really liked shield+1h when I reached levels 26-30 when I played it, before that it was quite a pain. Then scoring kills was fairly easy (of course str build and heirloomed weapon really helped to cover the typical 1h damage deficiency) in the thick of melee. On the other hand, with a polearm/2h I really prefer hanging around in the sidelines instead of leading the charge.

What I'm aiming for with this system is that everyone will be forced to block some strikes. That's just not the case now. I constanly observe people when I'm dead who just never block, but still do good in the ranking. How can this be? I know why, but I let you find the answer yourself.

[Pecores_Roland_Culet]

A stamina bar which would depend about strength of the character would be excellent.
With this can be that the strength would serve has something...  actualy strength is realy useless

[bruce]

What I'm aiming for with this system is that everyone will be forced to block some strikes.

Which is honestly stupid/unrealistic/whatever you will. If someone runs around with a chambered overhead of his great maul, I'm supposed to, wait, not swing at him and kill him but try some blocking first? Why? To give him a +1 kill?


Everyone IS forced to block strikes unless he wishes to die when the opponent is aware of him, is in range of his weapon, and has successfully blocked (or has attacked first), else he will get hit.

This really does damn well hold true in postpatch crpg.

That's just not the case now. I constanly observe people when I'm dead who just never block, but still do good in the ranking. How can this be? I know why, but I let you find the answer yourself.

I'll answer it; because it works on people who don't block either. When two people who don't block meet, the one with better timing and longer weapon gets the first hit. A competent player who can block well also isn't going to block first if he can hit first, because combat is about hitting and disabling the other guy, not blocking. You block to defend yourself, you attack to kill people.

Your idea would, by the way, transform the game into crush through block weapon mass poliferaton. Why? If you're a good blocker, you need to block only a few times with your system to prevent the other guy from swinging repeatedly, and once that happens, wham overhead and he's dead. That falls under "breaking melee combat", for instance.

[IG_Saint]

1. Elaborate
2. True. So what? I'm not saying DO IT NAO, I'm just saying I think this would be the best solution. Maybe the effort needed is too high, let the devs decide.
3. True. So what? Every major balance change has the potential to ruin everything. Just do it right.
4. True. It needs change, that's why the suggestion comes up times and times again.

1. nerf high speed builds, there done, no need for a complete overhaul while fixing the problem.
2. On what do you base that it would be the best solution? Give me a single argument why stamina would be beter than just nerfing high speed builds.
3. So what? So there are easier and beter solutions.
4. It doesn't need change, the system is fine, this has been said countless times, the problem is simply that high speed spam is too effective against noobs.

In the end this is al moot anyway. The devs aren't going to implement a stamina bar, because the devs have been playing m&b long enough to know that spam is only a problem for new players. So to everyone who dies to spam: go play on the duel server. Find who ever has the best ratio on there and duel him until you don't suck.

[Wallace]

Look I hate getting stun locked from polearms as much as the next guy, but the fact that it is the rock to my scissors in this game doesn't mean i should call nerf at every turn.

so here goes my attempt at a diagram explaining this (hopefully it doesnt get fucked up)

                                                                                      ((((((((Shields)))))))) Scissors
                                                                                     /\                            \
                                                                                     /                               \
                                                                                   /                                 _\|
                                                          Rock((2h\polearms)))<-------------(((Ranged))) PAPER

And with that... end of discussion

[1slander]

This was never a QQ post about being spammed.

This was a suggestion post about possibly having a stamina bar put in the mod. 

I felt it would add a realism to the game as well as something else to consider while gearing your character (armor and weopon weight), choosing your strength in your build, and planning your attacks, etc. 

Becoming stuck on one notion of the suggestion - be it a cry for help against spam attacks? - C'mon!  It's a stamina bar and everything that would go along with it.  Nothing more nothing less.  It doesn't take a genius to understand the reasoning behind one.  It also doesn't take a genius to read a post and then offer subjective criticism on said post.  But highlighting only certain aspects and then snowballing a 5 page argument over spam? 

Stamina - You either like it or you don't. 

[Radix]

Stamina would be perhaps a good idea, but way to complicated to apply into the game and way to complicated for spammers to cope with.

Btw nerfing kind off never completly solve the problems unless u nerf everything to an extent where u reach a perfect balance. If u don't, after some time u got to power up Agi builds again or nerf STR build and so on.

Anyone noticed how every Stamina post is followed by 'potions' 'stuns' etc jokes?? well, yeah it makes u a little bit funnier, but hows that related to stamina?? potions- WOW/L2     stamina - real life???

However im not syaing that cRPG would be better with stamina bar, no one rly knows that, but it would be different for sure.
The mian advantage of stamina bar that I see would be rised importance of STR as now it is actualy more useless than ever before. STR gives u nothing rly, especcialy in the new cRPG as plates are not wortwhile to have anymore. higher dmg??? meh, some weapons have enough of it, more HP?? meh it makes u survive 3 hits instead of 2 in the best scenario. So summarising: DMG(the dmg that STR gives u),HP,Armor requirement - all useless in current cRPG.

[MeatBunny]

lol, "A stamina bar would ruin the game". Does that even make sense :. Why, why would it ruin the game? i don't understand where any of those people are coming from. Its a great idea it should have been included ages ago. The topic comes up everyday because we fuckin need it.

[jspook]

The idea of a stamina bar doesnt even fit with everything else the game already has going on.
IE:  high wpf where you want it, stacking str and agi where you want them, putting weapon points into athletics
if you had a stamina bar that was affected by these things, do you really think it would stop spamming?

most of the complaints on this board are that noobs get pwned by spammers who dont have to stop swinging.
if you factor all of the above into a stamina bar, those same noobs are going to get their faces pwned even harder.  especially because now they would have no way to fight back against a higher level opponent.

higher athletics = more stamina.
higher str = more stamina.
 so lowbie characters would be able to block once or twice before having their faces destroyed by said instrument because they are now unable to block thanks to your stamina bar, while they high level guys just swing away with all the points they have invested.

good idea.

as it stands now those same lowbies can last for quite some time and even come out on top if they have even a modicum of skill in manual blocking.

this game is fun because of all the diversity of character builds.  just take a look at the http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,130.0.html board and you will see so many different things going on there.  the people who built to spam, can also get raped by throwers and people with better range/footwork.  I cant even begin to tell you how many times I have died with a javelin in my forhead right as I was about to chop some poor bastard in half.

[zagibu]

Which is honestly stupid/unrealistic/whatever you will. If someone runs around with a chambered overhead of his great maul, I'm supposed to, wait, not swing at him and kill him but try some blocking first? Why? To give him a +1 kill?

What made you think that? The stamina system would not stop you from swinging first. It wouldn't even stop you from slashing 2-3 times, but then you'd have to back off and catch your breath again, or your next swing might be slower than his. I don't think it would drop so fast that maulers would only need to block 3 strikes, because they are REALLY slow. For them, maybe after 5 blocks they could get faster than you, not before.

Everyone IS forced to block strikes unless he wishes to die when the opponent is aware of him, is in range of his weapon, and has successfully blocked (or has attacked first), else he will get hit.

This really does damn well hold true in postpatch crpg.

I'll answer it; because it works on people who don't block either. When two people who don't block meet, the one with better timing and longer weapon gets the first hit. A competent player who can block well also isn't going to block first if he can hit first, because combat is about hitting and disabling the other guy, not blocking. You block to defend yourself, you attack to kill people.

I'm going to try and prove you wrong with my next build. In my opinion, it's possible to build a char with a long weapon that can spam non-shielders so they can't hit back. And against shielders, you equip a shieldbreaker with this build and need to block maybe 3 times, then their shield is gone and you can continue the spam. I think this is true because I have observed it many times while spectating other players when I was dead.

Your idea would, by the way, transform the game into crush through block weapon mass poliferaton. Why? If you're a good blocker, you need to block only a few times with your system to prevent the other guy from swinging repeatedly, and once that happens, wham overhead and he's dead. That falls under "breaking melee combat", for instance.

As I was saying before, he'll probably have to block 5 times. If he can successfully block you 5 times in a row and you don't manage to back off in this time, he deserves to kill you in my opinion. If crushthrough had to block 5 times right now, there would be now crushthrough players at all. But they only have to block one or two strikes, because combat is much more complex than you try to display it here.

1. nerf high speed builds, there done, no need for a complete overhaul while fixing the problem.
2. On what do you base that it would be the best solution? Give me a single argument why stamina would be beter than just nerfing high speed builds.
3. So what? So there are easier and beter solutions.
4. It doesn't need change, the system is fine, this has been said countless times, the problem is simply that high speed spam is too effective against noobs.

In the end this is al moot anyway. The devs aren't going to implement a stamina bar, because the devs have been playing m&b long enough to know that spam is only a problem for new players. So to everyone who dies to spam: go play on the duel server. Find who ever has the best ratio on there and duel him until you don't suck.

1. Hollow words. Nerf high speed builds how?
2. It is the best solution, because it would fix the problem and not affect anyone else. Also, as I have already posted in other stamina threads, it would introduce a chance to get rid of the hard requirements on equipment. But this is probably too visionary for you, so I won't elaborate further.
3. Yeah, you constantly repeat that while failing to explain even a single one of those supposedly existing multiple better solutions.
4. This is nothing but your opinion. In my opinion, a system that allows to replace skill with a certain character build is broken and needs to be fixed.

Your suggestions for new players are very good, but maybe in the wrong place here.

[Radix]

most of the complaints on this board are that noobs get pwned by spammers who dont have to stop swinging.
if you factor all of the above into a stamina bar, those same noobs are going to get their faces pwned even harder.

I guess u havent meet an agi build yet. Its not about skill anymore, even with perfect timing ur counter wont even reach the target cose u get slashed through the face. Agi build with hafted balde can oustpam u even if ur timing is perfect, and he kills u in 3 hits  depsite he has almost no STR the dmg is fair cose hafted blade has quite a lot of it already. Check out how agi spam build is owning everything else now, spectate/duel one of them and u will see wht im talking about, they kill the whole groups slashin with such speed that most players cant react. As far as I saw they only die being outnumbered, in 1vs1 they always win unless they fail at some point. In order to fix that something got ot be nerfed, AGI,wpf or weapon's requriements or dmg, the point is, as I said before nerfing will allways underpower some players and overpower others, thats why stamina bar may be a good way of dealing with huge weapons/agi spam problem.  And besides u can't denny the fact that STR is pretty useless at the momment.

[jspook]

I guess u havent meet an agi build yet. Its not about skill anymore, even with perfect timing ur counter wont even reach the target cose u get slashed through the face. Agi build with hafted balde can oustpam u even if ur timing is perfect, and he kills u in 3 hits  depsite he has almost no STR the dmg is fair cose hafted blade has quite a lot of it already. Check out how agi spam build is owning everything else now, spectate/duel one of them and u will see wht im talking about, they kill the whole groups slashin with such speed that most players cant react. As far as I saw they only die being outnumbered, in 1vs1 they always win unless they fail at some point. In order to fix that something got ot be nerfed, AGI,wpf or weapon's requriements or dmg, the point is, as I said before nerfing will allways underpower some players and overpower others, thats why stamina bar may be a good way of dealing with huge weapons/agi spam problem.  And besides u can't denny the fact that STR is pretty useless at the momment.

I fight high agi all the time.
and the above described is a polearm problem with balance.  NOT a build issue.

Do you guys not seem to understand that a stamina bar would scew over EVERYONE.  not just the classes you are all on here whining and pointing to as the problem children.
You think it's bad now?  a 2h weap takes at most 2 hits to kill someone, and most 1Hers take 3-5 if you have any armor at all.  Try getting those 3-5 hits in on me while also wasting your stamina to block.  the people who only need to hit ONCE will rule a stamina based system.

[Radix]

just saw 1h/shield agi spam doing exactly the same thing.

[bruce]

What made you think that? The stamina system would not stop you from swinging first. It wouldn't even stop you from slashing 2-3 times, but then you'd have to back off and catch your breath again, or your next swing might be slower than his. I don't think it would drop so fast that maulers would only need to block 3 strikes, because they are REALLY slow. For them, maybe after 5 blocks they could get faster than you, not before.

He doesn't need to be "faster then you" - just fast enough not to get spammed. The game allows you to counterattack with a much slower weapon. For instance, with a balanced 18/18 char, I can basically always counterattack with a GLB (which is really slow, in addition to being unbalanced and feeling slower then eg a long voulge which is slower on paper - don't understand why), a long voulge and other 80-ish speed weapons. However, with the long maul - which is 70ish speed - I can get spammed, and can't counterattack every time vs much faster weapons. Which is balanced, of course, since he also can't block me. (which answers the question why barmace isn't balanced - it can maintain a block-attack rythm vs everyone).

A few hits dropping your speed, and you can no longer attempt to "outspam", which leads to your inevitable death vs a weapon which isn't blockable. It's even worse when you consider a barmace or such which actually can maintain block-attack-block... and trying to spam even a str guy with a heirloomed (hence slower, but more likely to crush through block) barmace is very hard without a stamina bar.

I'm going to try and prove you wrong with my next build. In my opinion, it's possible to build a char with a long weapon that can spam non-shielders so they can't hit back. And against shielders, you equip a shieldbreaker with this build and need to block maybe 3 times, then their shield is gone and you can continue the spam. I think this is true because I have observed it many times while spectating other players when I was dead.

And from fighting ninjas with their masterwork katanas and 25+ agi builds I can tell you it's not true, and you can maintain block-attack-block vs them as well. Of course, sometimes they get you by chambering, but that isn't spam (unless, of course, it happened by luck). Actually I have less fear fighting a ninja then a normal balanced character, because I know I can survive about 2-3 katana hits, and they're dead in exactly one hit in the face with my masterwork glaive. Of course, you have to mentally prepare for the speed.

But if you can maintain block-attack-block vs someone with a masterwork katana and >25 agi, what build on earth are you planning? A 3 str long dagger one? I can counterattack vs nokeyboard who has I think a hafted blade and ~25-ish agi - except I have to be careful and do it immediately.

If someone blocks you and is immediately in range of his weapon (there's various footwork trickery you can do, of course), you have to block or you will get hit.



The "problem" of spam are people who don't block, or don't counterattack properly. Dead men don't swing.
(btw, of course, for sake of simplicity I'm ignoring chamber blocking, which isn't spam. I'm also ignoring various range tricks which look like spam but are not.)