chadz, wth are you doing to strategus ?

[chadz]

because it kills trading.

[Taser]

I played one of those browsergames for several weeks where you build troops, attack at some time and capture villages. It was fun at first but after some time it was really timeconsuming, forcing me to do things every few hours not to fall back. I hope strat isn't heading this way.

Tribal wars? If so I know what you mean.

I get you chadz and I actually support this. I do think there should be a low profit alternative though. Working for a baker/blacksmith/etc for 10 gold an hour or something. Enough to cover the rent and a little extra. Not profitable enough to deter people from trading but giving an alternative for people that don't want to get too involved.

It is your game though and you did say things will be finetuned. So let's just see how things go.

[Gristle]

Nerfing gold gained from crpg is not the same as buffing trading.

There are so many ways to spend gold, and so very few ways to gain it. There needs to be more options.

[Goretooth]

I like the gold gained from playing crpg now doesn't need to be higher.

[Tydeus]

The best way to encourage active players and toss aside inactive players is to increase the amount of gold gained from playing crpg. I don't understand why it moved the other direction.

That's not strategus activity, that's crpg activity.

[SPQR]

because it kills trading.

The problem is the quadruple nerf to gold production (removing working, increased upkeep, 4x equipment cost, nerfed crpg gold) has made gold SO RARE that no one can afford to use any of the new features in strategus, especially the average joe.

No one can craft items cause they can't afford to, and there would be no one who could afford to buy them even if they did make some.
No one can afford to equip a force large enough to take any fiefs.
No one can form caravans because the start up costs are too high.


Here are some numbers --

Cost to field 500 troops.

(click to show/hide)

(I'm going to assume in the following #'s that troop upkeep and gold from crpg cancel out or are negligible)

Time to recruit 500 troops @ 100% recruitment rate: 500 manhours
Cost to recruit 500 troops @ 5 gold per hour: 2,500 gold

Equipment for 500 troops:
500 * 107.16(Studded Leather Coat) = 53,580
500 * 31.76(Nasal Helmet)                 = 15,880
500 * 11.56(Leather Gloves)              = 5,780
500 * 6.12(Sarranid Leather Boots)   = 3,060
150 * 26.16(Falchion)                          = 3,924
400 * 30.04(Old Heater Shield)           = 12,016
100 * 30.16(Two Handed Axe)            = 3,016
150 * 5.08(Pitch Fork)                        = 762
150 * 34.84(Short Bow)                     = 5,226
450 * 6.44(Arrows)                          = 2,829

Total cost for equipment: 106,073
Estimated gold per hour via trading: 12/hr (based on averages I've calculated)

Total cost for troops and equipment: 108,573
Time to raise 108,573 @ 12/hr: 9048 manhours
Total manhours: 9548 manhours

--
Time per member - 50 man clan: 191 hours
Time per member - 25 man clan: 382 hours
Time per member - 10 man clan: 905 hours

So at this rate a 50 man clan will need 8 days to raise and equip a 500 man army, assuming all members are active and working at 100% efficiency (ie just pumping out trade goods and recruiting, no traveling or anything else).
A 25 man clan will need 16 days.
And a 10 man clan will need 38 days.

Cost to field a caravan

(click to show/hide)

Assuming 50 troops and 50 goods -

Time to recruit 50 troops: 50 manhours
Cost to recruit 50 troops: 250 gold
Time to gather 50 goods: 50 manhours
Cost to gather 50 goods: 400 gold
Cost to equip 50 troops: 10,600 gold
Time to gather 11,250 gold @ 12/hr: 937 manhours

Total cost: 11, 250 gold
Total manhours: 1037

Anyway just to show how crazy the gold situation is - it takes 18x longer to equip a soldier as it does to recruit him.

[Malaclypse]

As an alternative to trading, why not raidin? Razing a village without capturing it in some form or another, taking their wallets, raping their womenz etc.

[Slamz]

Yet again strategus is changed, normaly i applaude the changes but this last ones... wel are totaly stupid and out of context of a war game.

WHAT?!?!

What do you think a war game is?

Two armies clashing on a field for the hell of it?  That's not a wargame -- that's a battle server and we already have that.

Proper wargames need things to fight over.  The more reasons to fight, the better.  Implementing trade routes in an "open PvP" world is the best thing a wargame can do.  It promotes a great reason for fighting: you took my stuff.  Or you took my clan's stuff and now my clan is going to run your clan out of town.


Wargames need a war and the best way to have a war is over a combination of land, resources and money.  Even Starcraft, which can only barely be considered to be a wargame, has fights centered around control of resources.  Without that, it's just a "battle simulation with a map".


It also means that Strategus now has the following roles to fill:
a) Trader.  Runs from town to town making money.
b) Crafter.  Sits in villages and crafts stuff, probably with money given to him by his trader friend.  (The trader may also be picking up these crafted goods and selling them to other players.)
c) Mercenary.  Rents his services to traders that get jumped.
d) Vagabond.  Jumps traders and steals their stuff.
e) Soldier.  Captures fiefs.  Also assists allied traders.
f) Recruiter.  Goes to castles and raises armies.


Most clans will have most of these functions and many people will do more than one thing.  For example, if you don't want to do trading then you may be handed money and told to go craft stuff, or raise troops, while additionally being on standby to join fights as necessary.

Without the trade system, you lose almost all of this interaction and have a much more shallow game, hardly worth calling a "wargame".

[Slamz]

Assuming 50 troops and 50 goods -

Time to recruit 50 troops: 50 manhours
Cost to recruit 50 troops: 250 gold
Time to gather 50 goods: 50 manhours
Cost to gather 50 goods: 400 gold
Cost to equip 50 troops: 10,600 gold
Time to gather 11,250 gold @ 12/hr: 937 manhours

Total cost: 11, 250 gold
Total manhours: 1037

I do think troop equipment prices are way off.

I don't think the value of your troop's helmets should grossly outweigh the value of the goods in your caravan.


Typical Strategus bandit conversation:
Bandit chief: "We are going to hit this trade caravan at dawn!"
Bandit noob: "I hear they are transporting ale!  How much does that sell for?"
Bandit chief: "You idiot!  Nobody cares about trade goods!  It's their HELMETS we want!  Those things are worth a fortune!"

[Overdriven]

Why? Thats what annoyed me the most in last strat, hordes of inactive players that produce gold just because of their mere existance. Why should I add a position in a game for someone who doesn't want to play the game in the first place?

Strategus was never supposed to be "strength by numbers", it was supposed to be "strength by strategy". Having a bunch of inactive serials sitting around to define the gold everyone gets is not a game worth playing, let alone coding.

Of course, this doesn't mean that everything is perfectly balanced. Lots of things will be finetuned.

And for those who don't know what to do or how to conquer fiefs or gain money, read the guide here (tba)

I just feel like the current system supports hoards of relatively inactive crafters instead. They just have to be slightly more active in making transfers...aka traders have to bug them to log in and transfer a lot more if you actually want to see the profit. But essentially they are still doing exactly the same thing. If one of them gets low on gold, then the person with the most gold simply has to transfer across to them to keep production going.

If anything, it just makes management harder, but there will always be people willing to do it to get ahead. Not sure how you could design it so that inactive players effectively become useless in strat, but with the much smaller player base due to only being full actives, adjust prices of everything so they can still generate the funds needed.

[PhantomZero]

I just feel like the current system supports hoards of relatively inactive crafters instead. They just have to be slightly more active in making transfers...aka traders have to bug them to log in and transfer a lot more if you actually want to see the profit. But essentially they are still doing exactly the same thing. If one of them gets low on gold, then the person with the most gold simply has to transfer across to them to keep production going.

Exactly

[LordBerenger]

Strength in numbers = Might = Might makes right > Strength by Strategy

[Slamz]

I just feel like the current system supports hoards of relatively inactive crafters instead.

This is fine, though, because in order to have a hoard of people crafting, you must have a pretty good number of people trading.

This is where the fights will happen: intercepting traders.  The old system meant that EVERYONE was in towns, all the time.  The new system means at least some decent percentage must venture out and run trade routes.  There's a lot more potential for action.


I think the fear is, "I'm going to have to run trade routes!  I don't want to be a trader!"

Well.... don't then.  Clans will still need people dedicated to crafting and recruiting.  They'll also probably want people out running around looking for enemies to attack -- enemy traders, as well as bandits after your own clan's traders.

I think this new plan is going to be action packed once we get the issues sorted out.

[Slantedfloors]

I think this new plan is going to be action packed once we get the issues sorted out.

Exactly. When issues like "No one is able to maintain an army" and "There is no money" get fixed, I'm sure these changes will work fine.

[Gingerpussy]

because it kills trading.

Why do you never listen to the player base chadz ? only time u listen realy listen and cared was the split of EU/NA,

So please tell me who want to sit one to two weeks to supply a caravan ?

Good luck with ur trading game,, at least i get to play some other game in 10 days ....