Author Topic: Bodkins and Archery: An Inconvenient Truth  (Read 14415 times)

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Offline mustg

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Re: Bodkins and Archery: An Inconvenient Truth
« Reply #90 on: October 16, 2011, 10:30:42 am »
+1
well i have 8 pd and 7 wm, mw rus bow & mw bodkins and i can kill a guy who is equipped with 3x heirloomed transitional armour & 3x heirloomed gilded hourglass gauntlets+ 6 IF with 2-3 shots...  ^^
« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 10:32:15 am by mustg »
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Offline Kafein

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Re: Bodkins and Archery: An Inconvenient Truth
« Reply #91 on: October 16, 2011, 12:44:30 pm »
+2

"This isn't close to what a decent horseman has to pay for a very squishy and huge (read arrows will hit) horse, and even more when the horse is easier to hit and a little more resistant."

Once again, people are yet to realize the intentions towards cavalry from the mod creator. It was supposed to be a "prestige class" due to the simple fact that it is the biggest powerhouse in this mod/game and the biggest tide-turner. A decent cav/lancer p.e. can easily achieve ridiculous amounts of kills even using the "squishy and huge horse" you kindly mention, (take Leed, or Tommy as an example). And the reason behind the increased cost of the mounts prices it's only a measure to counter the huge numbers of cavalry constantly at the game, making it simply unplayable, specially with the number of deser/plains maps on rotation now.
You can imagine 30+ players with a 1 hit kill ability every few seconds and the ability of knocking down opponents while dealing damage as they please.
Also add the fact that it's easier with medium/high ping players to hit the rider than the bugged mount, cause it's immense the amount of arrows that pass by that amazing animal or that every cav rider can bump hit anyone trying to block (yes, sadly even lancers can do it, even if the lance has already passed the target).

Even so this measure wasn't enough, since market allows people to make easily lots of money by either honest trades or scamming like a boss.


Look at all the noob cav we see lately, how many kills do they make ? Not that much.

Besides, it is correct that cav is the class with the best killing potential, but when you look at it closely, they can't really choose their kills. And that makes a lot of difference. Killing a lvl 3 peasant or killing that-2h-celebrity-that-killed-your-whole-team-last-round counts as 1 kill. There are very few things that will determine wether someone will probably die to cav or not : cav awareness, teamplay and weapon choice.

The peasant has usually no defense and will get lanced or bumped to death cheaply. One kill.

The uber-elite-2h has cav awareness, otherwise he wouldn't be that much elite. He has a good anti-cav defense weapon (jumpswings, GS lolstabs). And sometimes plays nearby teammates, sometimes not, but since he has a good weapon and awareness, the team support isn't needed. To kill that guy, a cav has to wait for an opening in the awareness, otherwise he will get lolstabbed. He also has to wait for the teammates (especially polearm users) to die or go somewhere else. Moreover, attacking when the 2h is occupied fighting inf is a gamble, as the risk of killing/bumping/hitting a teammate is very high, especially with "tornado fighters". And finally, he is forced to use the couched lance and all its hazards since a decent armor is enough to protect the 2h from a onehit lance poke (and hitting that 2h twice will be even more difficult). If the cav manages to kill that beast somehow, the holy scoreboard says the same. One kill.


No wonder those very good shiedless infantry are usually killed by ranged, as all the other classes have much more trouble doing it.


What I'm trying to say is that while cav do a lot of kills, most of them aren't valuable at all. I can safely assume that 70% of cav kills are unaware people. The rest are fail jumpswings, ranged missing the last-second-headshot, other cav or footmen outnumbered by cav. Those people with poor cav awareness usually aren't good in what they do, cav awareness is a sign of battle mode experience (thus general fighting experience as well).

Ranged, on the other side of the spectrum, can choose their targets in a much larger pool. The differences between the peasant and the uber-2h from an archer point of view are much lesser than from a cav pov (unlike cav in the majority of cases, ranged don't die when they miss). Yet one will turn the tide of the battle, and the other will not.

That's why I don't think cav do turn the tide of battles more than any other classes. Elite cavs turn the tide of battles just as elite inf or elite ranged. Average cav ? Nope. They die trying to charge a lone archer (it takes a decent horseman to kill the logically weakest possible aware target) or doing other things that seem realistic but aren't effective. It's only when they realise they are disguised ninjas on horses they start making kills (yet not the "useful" kills).


tl:dr Archers don't make lots of kills but all their arrows (hitting or not) are useful for the team. The K/D ratio doesn't mean anything compared to the W/L ratio.

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Re: Bodkins and Archery: An Inconvenient Truth
« Reply #92 on: October 16, 2011, 01:28:05 pm »
0
Look at all the noob cav we see lately, how many kills do they make ? Not that much.

Besides, it is correct that cav is the class with the best killing potential, but when you look at it closely, they can't really choose their kills. And that makes a lot of difference. Killing a lvl 3 peasant or killing that-2h-celebrity-that-killed-your-whole-team-last-round counts as 1 kill. There are very few things that will determine wether someone will probably die to cav or not : cav awareness, teamplay and weapon choice.

The peasant has usually no defense and will get lanced or bumped to death cheaply. One kill.

The uber-elite-2h has cav awareness, otherwise he wouldn't be that much elite. He has a good anti-cav defense weapon (jumpswings, GS lolstabs). And sometimes plays nearby teammates, sometimes not, but since he has a good weapon and awareness, the team support isn't needed. To kill that guy, a cav has to wait for an opening in the awareness, otherwise he will get lolstabbed. He also has to wait for the teammates (especially polearm users) to die or go somewhere else. Moreover, attacking when the 2h is occupied fighting inf is a gamble, as the risk of killing/bumping/hitting a teammate is very high, especially with "tornado fighters". And finally, he is forced to use the couched lance and all its hazards since a decent armor is enough to protect the 2h from a onehit lance poke (and hitting that 2h twice will be even more difficult). If the cav manages to kill that beast somehow, the holy scoreboard says the same. One kill.


No wonder those very good shiedless infantry are usually killed by ranged, as all the other classes have much more trouble doing it.


What I'm trying to say is that while cav do a lot of kills, most of them aren't valuable at all. I can safely assume that 70% of cav kills are unaware people. The rest are fail jumpswings, ranged missing the last-second-headshot, other cav or footmen outnumbered by cav. Those people with poor cav awareness usually aren't good in what they do, cav awareness is a sign of battle mode experience (thus general fighting experience as well).

Ranged, on the other side of the spectrum, can choose their targets in a much larger pool. The differences between the peasant and the uber-2h from an archer point of view are much lesser than from a cav pov (unlike cav in the majority of cases, ranged don't die when they miss). Yet one will turn the tide of the battle, and the other will not.

That's why I don't think cav do turn the tide of battles more than any other classes. Elite cavs turn the tide of battles just as elite inf or elite ranged. Average cav ? Nope. They die trying to charge a lone archer (it takes a decent horseman to kill the logically weakest possible aware target) or doing other things that seem realistic but aren't effective. It's only when they realise they are disguised ninjas on horses they start making kills (yet not the "useful" kills).


tl:dr Archers don't make lots of kills but all their arrows (hitting or not) are useful for the team. The K/D ratio doesn't mean anything compared to the W/L ratio.
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Re: Bodkins and Archery: An Inconvenient Truth
« Reply #93 on: October 16, 2011, 03:10:19 pm »
0
Some people need to play more on Battle servers to realize the true state of things.

Offline kongxinga

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Re: Bodkins and Archery: An Inconvenient Truth
« Reply #94 on: October 16, 2011, 03:29:15 pm »
0
Look at all the noob cav we see lately, how many kills do they make ? Not that much.

Besides, it is correct that cav is the class with the best killing potential, but when you look at it closely, they can't really choose their kills. And that makes a lot of difference. Killing a lvl 3 peasant or killing that-2h-celebrity-that-killed-your-whole-team-last-round counts as 1 kill. There are very few things that will determine wether someone will probably die to cav or not : cav awareness, teamplay and weapon choice.

The peasant has usually no defense and will get lanced or bumped to death cheaply. One kill.

The uber-elite-2h has cav awareness, otherwise he wouldn't be that much elite. He has a good anti-cav defense weapon (jumpswings, GS lolstabs). And sometimes plays nearby teammates, sometimes not, but since he has a good weapon and awareness, the team support isn't needed. To kill that guy, a cav has to wait for an opening in the awareness, otherwise he will get lolstabbed. He also has to wait for the teammates (especially polearm users) to die or go somewhere else. Moreover, attacking when the 2h is occupied fighting inf is a gamble, as the risk of killing/bumping/hitting a teammate is very high, especially with "tornado fighters". And finally, he is forced to use the couched lance and all its hazards since a decent armor is enough to protect the 2h from a onehit lance poke (and hitting that 2h twice will be even more difficult). If the cav manages to kill that beast somehow, the holy scoreboard says the same. One kill.


No wonder those very good shiedless infantry are usually killed by ranged, as all the other classes have much more trouble doing it.


What I'm trying to say is that while cav do a lot of kills, most of them aren't valuable at all. I can safely assume that 70% of cav kills are unaware people. The rest are fail jumpswings, ranged missing the last-second-headshot, other cav or footmen outnumbered by cav. Those people with poor cav awareness usually aren't good in what they do, cav awareness is a sign of battle mode experience (thus general fighting experience as well).

Ranged, on the other side of the spectrum, can choose their targets in a much larger pool. The differences between the peasant and the uber-2h from an archer point of view are much lesser than from a cav pov (unlike cav in the majority of cases, ranged don't die when they miss). Yet one will turn the tide of the battle, and the other will not.

That's why I don't think cav do turn the tide of battles more than any other classes. Elite cavs turn the tide of battles just as elite inf or elite ranged. Average cav ? Nope. They die trying to charge a lone archer (it takes a decent horseman to kill the logically weakest possible aware target) or doing other things that seem realistic but aren't effective. It's only when they realise they are disguised ninjas on horses they start making kills (yet not the "useful" kills).


tl:dr Archers don't make lots of kills but all their arrows (hitting or not) are useful for the team. The K/D ratio doesn't mean anything compared to the W/L ratio.

Thank you for taking the time to write out this clear and well thought post.

And yes chadz is a horse hater. Having all cav armies isn't strange depending on which part of the world you were in during medieval times. But, noooooo, we need bog standard boring western european catholic state of affairs.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 03:31:13 pm by kongxinga »

Offline copper

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Re: Bodkins and Archery: An Inconvenient Truth
« Reply #95 on: October 16, 2011, 07:07:36 pm »
0
If you're getting killed by archers too much perhaps you should:

1.) Stop making ridiculous 30/9 STR builds with plate armor. Shooting high ATH players who can change directions on a dime is much harder than shooting a slow STR build, no matter the range.
2.) Get a shield (no shit).
3.) Get off your horse or avoid archers. Cav are public enemy #1 for archers, and shooting them off their horses gives me a semi.
4.) Play as a team. If you're charging head-first into an archer nest at the start of the round maybe you need to re-think your "tactics".

This has been a public service announcement by your friendly neighborhood pussy archer. :mrgreen:

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Re: Bodkins and Archery: An Inconvenient Truth
« Reply #96 on: October 16, 2011, 07:35:09 pm »
0
If you're getting killed by archers too much perhaps you should:

1.) Stop making ridiculous 30/9 STR builds with plate armor. Shooting high ATH players who can change directions on a dime is much harder than shooting a slow STR build, no matter the range.
2.) Get a shield (no shit).
3.) Get off your horse or avoid archers. Cav are public enemy #1 for archers, and shooting them off their horses gives me a semi.
4.) Play as a team. If you're charging head-first into an archer nest at the start of the round maybe you need to re-think your "tactics".

This has been a public service announcement by your friendly neighborhood pussy archer. :mrgreen:

/signed
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Re: Bodkins and Archery: An Inconvenient Truth
« Reply #97 on: October 16, 2011, 07:41:40 pm »
+1
well i have 8 pd and 7 wm, mw rus bow & mw bodkins and i can kill a guy who is equipped with 3x heirloomed transitional armour & 3x heirloomed gilded hourglass gauntlets+ 6 IF with 2-3 shots...  ^^

Finally sb who admits it.
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Re: Bodkins and Archery: An Inconvenient Truth
« Reply #98 on: October 16, 2011, 08:03:50 pm »
0
well i have 8 pd and 7 wm, mw rus bow & mw bodkins and i can kill a guy who is equipped with 3x heirloomed transitional armour & 3x heirloomed gilded hourglass gauntlets+ 6 IF with 2-3 shots...  ^^

Finally sb who admits it.

I'd love to see some sort of evidence/extended testing from someone with 8 PD and MW Rus/bodkins, because as I said before I averaged between 5 - 6 hits on high HP/tin can type players with my MW horn & MW Bodkins.  Taking someone with 85 hp (30 str 10 if) and high end armor that's between 14-17 damage per shot with my raw 31 pierce damage and 5 PD.

To 2-3 shot those same targets consistently you'd need to be doing a whopping 28.3-37.5 damage per shot.  Are you telling me that the +4 pierce and your +3 PD compared to my build is going to account for more than double the damage per shot?

I call bullshit. MW Rus Bow & MW Bodkins is not going to consistently 2-3 shot tin-cans unless they are agi builds wearing heavy armor.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 08:05:21 pm by MrShine »
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Re: Bodkins and Archery: An Inconvenient Truth
« Reply #99 on: October 16, 2011, 08:18:53 pm »
+1
I'd love to see some sort of evidence/extended testing from someone with 8 PD and MW Rus/bodkins, because as I said before I averaged between 5 - 6 hits on high HP/tin can type players with my MW horn & MW Bodkins.  Taking someone with 85 hp (30 str 10 if) and high end armor that's between 14-17 damage per shot with my raw 31 pierce damage and 5 PD.

To 2-3 shot those same targets consistently you'd need to be doing a whopping 28.3-37.5 damage per shot.  Are you telling me that the +4 pierce and your +3 PD compared to my build is going to account for more than double the damage per shot?

I call bullshit. MW Rus Bow & MW Bodkins is not going to consistently 2-3 shot tin-cans unless they are agi builds wearing heavy armor.

Announce when you want to do tests again and I will show up if I can :)  So we can check it out whether it's possible to do it most of the time or not


Look at all the noob cav we see lately, how many kills do they make ? Not that much.

Besides, it is correct that cav is the class with the best killing potential, but when you look at it closely, they can't really choose their kills. And that makes a lot of difference. Killing a lvl 3 peasant or killing that-2h-celebrity-that-killed-your-whole-team-last-round counts as 1 kill. There are very few things that will determine wether someone will probably die to cav or not : cav awareness, teamplay and weapon choice.

The peasant has usually no defense and will get lanced or bumped to death cheaply. One kill.

The uber-elite-2h has cav awareness, otherwise he wouldn't be that much elite. He has a good anti-cav defense weapon (jumpswings, GS lolstabs). And sometimes plays nearby teammates, sometimes not, but since he has a good weapon and awareness, the team support isn't needed. To kill that guy, a cav has to wait for an opening in the awareness, otherwise he will get lolstabbed. He also has to wait for the teammates (especially polearm users) to die or go somewhere else. Moreover, attacking when the 2h is occupied fighting inf is a gamble, as the risk of killing/bumping/hitting a teammate is very high, especially with "tornado fighters". And finally, he is forced to use the couched lance and all its hazards since a decent armor is enough to protect the 2h from a onehit lance poke (and hitting that 2h twice will be even more difficult). If the cav manages to kill that beast somehow, the holy scoreboard says the same. One kill.


No wonder those very good shiedless infantry are usually killed by ranged, as all the other classes have much more trouble doing it.


What I'm trying to say is that while cav do a lot of kills, most of them aren't valuable at all. I can safely assume that 70% of cav kills are unaware people. The rest are fail jumpswings, ranged missing the last-second-headshot, other cav or footmen outnumbered by cav. Those people with poor cav awareness usually aren't good in what they do, cav awareness is a sign of battle mode experience (thus general fighting experience as well).

Ranged, on the other side of the spectrum, can choose their targets in a much larger pool. The differences between the peasant and the uber-2h from an archer point of view are much lesser than from a cav pov (unlike cav in the majority of cases, ranged don't die when they miss). Yet one will turn the tide of the battle, and the other will not.

That's why I don't think cav do turn the tide of battles more than any other classes. Elite cavs turn the tide of battles just as elite inf or elite ranged. Average cav ? Nope. They die trying to charge a lone archer (it takes a decent horseman to kill the logically weakest possible aware target) or doing other things that seem realistic but aren't effective. It's only when they realise they are disguised ninjas on horses they start making kills (yet not the "useful" kills).


tl:dr Archers don't make lots of kills but all their arrows (hitting or not) are useful for the team. The K/D ratio doesn't mean anything compared to the W/L ratio.


Look at all the noobarchers out there. You can consider more than 70% of them as useless. Most of them miss about 2/3 of their shots and most noobarchers go for the easykill peasant and waste about 5 alone on this oneshot.

Funny how you say that cav has to couch a 2h to onehit him, whereas lots of cavplayers (I remember you sayint it, too) say in other threads, that couch does less damage than a thrust.  Can you guys please get clear about your own class before talking about other classes?

Actually ranged die alot of times when they miss their shot, because it can be a charging twohander/ polearmer who kills them, or an incoming horse or an enemy archer/thrower/crossbowguy. Maybe the risk for cavplayers is higher than the one for archers, but it's not as high as you state. Why do so many "uberelite twohander" get killed by cav and rage afterwards in the channel? Why are there so many people very often leaving the server to play siege because of a massive horde of cav on a server?  Doesn't look like cav is in such a high risk, as lots of players prefer easy-to-play classes.
Cav also has the bonus of lots of speed which lets them escape pretty well and which lets them dodge arrows very easy. And they have the bonus that they can wear lots of heavy armour without losing any damage or accuracy and without losing much speed with their horse.


Maybe we should close this thread as we are not getting closer to any solutions^^
Ranged is very balanced atm, except for the "arrows define the damagetype thing".
Ok and longbow could use a small buff compared to other bows, but that's archer intern and nothing that has to do with other classes

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Re: Bodkins and Archery: An Inconvenient Truth
« Reply #100 on: October 16, 2011, 09:49:08 pm »
0
Announce when you want to do tests again and I will show up if I can :)  So we can check it out whether it's possible to do it most of the time or not

Well I only have 6 PD so I don't know how much help I'd be to sit in on those tests :)

But (and I extend this to anyone who's interested in helping out further) the tests should be pretty easy to recreate if you want to do this independently.  Just post in this thread or send me a PM and I can add new info to help get a better picture on real figures.

1) Tell me your build and equipment & make sure you use bodkin arrows (or don't actually, it would be interesting to see how much bodkins affect archery, which might give people an idea about how archery was NOT fine without any pierce)

2) Make sure you keep track of the HP & body (chest + glove) armor of your victims.  If possible take a handful of tests with people to allow outliers to stand out.

3) Try to emulate similar distance shots based on my pictures in the OP. 

4) (optional) Mix it up!  If you want to try point blank & very long distance shots that would be interesting new data  I'd welcome.  Similarly, perhaps playing with speed bonus would be fun, maybe try to have a player move towards the archer (getting hit by the arrow ideally at one of the 'distance' markers I've included).

My one request is please try to document these variables as much as possible.  If I get something like "I 2 shot a tin can at long distance with my long bow and bodkins" I'm not considering that proof: give me real numbers and ideally some good test data. 

Highest "priority" data right now are IMO high PD archers that are using longbows or rus bows.  I would also be interested in hearing about how many arrows missed their targets during this test considering the lower accuracy of these builds :)
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Offline Adamar

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Re: Bodkins and Archery: An Inconvenient Truth
« Reply #101 on: October 16, 2011, 09:54:25 pm »
0
If you're getting killed by archers too much perhaps you should:

1.) Stop making ridiculous 30/9 STR builds with plate armor. Shooting high ATH players who can change directions on a dime is much harder than shooting a slow STR build, no matter the range.
2.) Get a shield (no shit).
3.) Get off your horse or avoid archers. Cav are public enemy #1 for archers, and shooting them off their horses gives me a semi.
4.) Play as a team. If you're charging head-first into an archer nest at the start of the round maybe you need to re-think your "tactics".

This has been a public service announcement by your friendly neighborhood pussy archer. :mrgreen:

What are you doing man! If all these noobs learn to play the game, we archers are all screwed!

Offline copper

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Re: Bodkins and Archery: An Inconvenient Truth
« Reply #102 on: October 17, 2011, 12:15:29 am »
0
Don't worry about it, good players already know this and stupid players don't learn.

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Re: Bodkins and Archery: An Inconvenient Truth
« Reply #103 on: October 17, 2011, 02:08:47 am »
0
If you're getting killed by archers too much perhaps you should:

1.) Stop making ridiculous 30/9 STR builds with plate armor. Shooting high ATH players who can change directions on a dime is much harder than shooting a slow STR build, no matter the range.
2.) Get a shield (no shit).
3.) Get off your horse or avoid archers. Cav are public enemy #1 for archers, and shooting them off their horses gives me a semi.
4.) Play as a team. If you're charging head-first into an archer nest at the start of the round maybe you need to re-think your "tactics".

This has been a public service announcement by your friendly neighborhood pussy archer. :mrgreen:

I'll do that if you get some melee weapon profiency, stop running and use a real 1 or 2 slot weapon.
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Re: Bodkins and Archery: An Inconvenient Truth
« Reply #104 on: October 17, 2011, 03:44:32 am »
0
I'll do that if you get some melee weapon profiency, stop running and use a real 1 or 2 slot weapon.

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Besides if he's using a rus bow which seems to be real popular, he has no chance to have a 1 slot weapon let alone a 2 slot. Unless he only has one stack of arrows then he could have a 1 slot. That would only give 17 arrows or so depending on which arrows he uses but I'll assume bodkins. So 17 arrows, which goes by quick, just so he can face down a pure melee with a hammer. Yeah sounds awesome.
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