Strategus patch - changelog

[Konrax]

What does quick march do and what are the costs of using it?

[Overdriven]

What does quick march do and what are the costs of using it?

Something like double speed for a certain time. Not sure how long.

Then someone said the cool down was this:
470min, 50% exhaustion (half speed)

[Turboflex]

I can understand the potential. I just don't think huge trading caravans of however 100's of troops will be profitable regardless of how you do it. Especially because you can't sell crafted items (higher potential profit) to towns and only to players which would be a pain in the arse. Only goods can be sold to towns and other settlements. Which are very low cost/profit. I would very much like to play the trading game and be one of those criss crossing merchants and I can see that many others also would. But right now the idea of trying to maintain the upkeep of lots of troops in order to transfer lots of good's is simply daunting. I just think you should be able to do it without troops somehow if you really wanted.

I don't see the point of allowing low troop/lots of good caravans. Once people start doing that, others will just start attacking them for easy loots. So I guess by all means add it but I don't think it will be very productive for the wannabee merchants, and it won't really generate much in the way of epic battles either.

The #s need to be balanced so that well guarded long distance caravans are very very profitable (way more profitable just shifting goods from village to NPC cities, to compensate for the extra time factor, and risk factor of attack) even with 100-500 guards. We'll see if increasing to 450% distance bonus is enough, maybe more would be needed.

Let's crunch some #s
Let's say 15 profit per good * 4.5 distance bonus * 500 = 33750 gold
But then you need to subtract 60 gold /hr for 500 troop guards, I dunno how long it would take to travel that 450% bonus over lets say plains, maybe 48 hours so that's only clipping off about 3000 profit, plus maybe minus another 500gold opportunity cost if the guy running the caravan had just stayed in a village. So 30,000k extra gold made over 48 hours for organizing a caravan according to my basic and possibly incorrect calculations? Seems like a decent deal right now. I guess we'll see over the next few weeks tho as things develop.

[Overdriven]

I don't see the point of allowing low troop/lots of good caravans. Once people start doing that, others will just start attacking them for easy loots. So I guess by all means add it but I don't think it will be very productive for the wannabee merchants, and it won't really generate much in the way of epic battles either.

The #s need to be balanced so that well guarded long distance caravans are very very profitable (way more profitable just shifting goods from village to NPC cities, to compensate for the extra time factor, and risk factor of attack) even with 100-500 guards. We'll see if increasing to 450% distance bonus is enough, maybe more would be needed.

Let's crunch some #s
Let's say 15 profit per good * 4.5 distance bonus * 500 = 33750 gold
But then you need to subtract 60 gold /hr for 500 troop guards, I dunno how long it would take to travel that 450% bonus over lets say plains, maybe 48 hours so that's only clipping off about 3000 profit, plus maybe minus another 500gold opportunity cost if the guy running the caravan had just stayed in a village. So 30,000k extra gold made over 48 hours for organizing a caravan according to my basic and possibly incorrect calculations? Seems like a decent deal right now. I guess we'll see over the next few weeks tho as things develop.

Hence the importance of trade agreements. That way you only trade with clans/across territories you have agreements with. Clans that attack neutral traders would also probably suffer because the towns, villages ect would earn a portion of their gold from the tax on goods in them (I assume this adjustable if you own the fief). If they became known to attack neutrals, less traders would go to them and therefore their fiefs would lose gold, and I'd imagine, prosperity. Trade would become very important to the general wealth of a clan once they gained fiefs. It would be in their interests to make trade agreements.

Troops are not the way to do it which ever way you look at it. Trade caravans would not have 500 troops on them. Maybe 100 troops absolute max for a very large caravan.

The way you describe it, the distance bonus would have to be adjusted. People have already tried going distances and apparently you need to travel the length of the map to get the full bonus. Add on the terrain obstacles, which unless your sitting at your computer 24/7, you will run into. Then you have way more than 48 hours. It took me close 100 hours to get from Aldelen (near Tihr) to Halmar because of the obstacles.

[arowaine]

Wow, you have to an epic troll to be banned from the goons.


Also, chadz - you need to keep gold from cRPG the sam,e as before if not even tweak it to 1 gold higher per level tick.  The new gold system means upkeep will be utterly impossible, let alone equipping them.  No real battles, just another boring stupid trading game, which the majority of cRPG players are not interested in except as a minor addition, not as the whole fricken game.

Only the anal retentive like the kind of micromanagement this new system entails without even the reward of having epic battles.

+1 to kesh this game is war and conquest not party gay time

[Turboflex]

Hence the importance of trade agreements. That way you only trade with clans/across territories you have agreements with. Clans that attack neutral traders would also probably suffer because the towns, villages ect would earn a portion of their gold from the tax on goods in them. If they became known to attack neutrals, less traders would go to them and therefore their fiefs would lose gold, and I'd imagine, prosperity. Trade would become very important to the general wealth of a clan once they gained fiefs. It would be in their interests to make trade agreements.

Troops are not the way to do it which ever way you look at it. Trade caravans would not have 500 troops on them. Maybe 100 troops absolute max for a very large caravan.

Well it's also a game and we want to see the system generating epic battles whic would be the downside of 1-30 troop sized caravans because there would be no real battle there if it was attacked crossing someone's land. Though you would want to curve the system so too many troops becomes inefficient otherwise why not send 10,000 goods/troops? There should be an optimal # determined, like how many tickets would you need for a nice 20-30 minute long battle? Any more than that and you would be dumping too many goods in your destination's market, flood it and surpress the price of goods.

[Overdriven]

Well it's also a game and we want to see the system generating epic battles whic would be the downside of 1-30 troop sized caravans because there would be no real battle there if it was attacked crossing someone's land. Though you would want to curve the system so too many troops becomes inefficient otherwise why not send 10,000 goods/troops? There should be an optimal # determined, like how many tickets would you need for a nice 20-30 minute long battle? Any more than that and you would be dumping too many goods in your destination's market, flood it and surpress the price of goods.

But the point of traders is not to fight epic battles. Those will be a separate thing. They are there to generate the wealth needed for other people to maintain the armies. Caravans should be involved in as few battles as possible. That way you also make it more interesting for the general player. You have some commanding the armies, but also some generating the wealth for the clan.

There should be some form of limit on numbers of goods. But tying it to troops isn't sensible. Tying it to something else would make more sense.

[Turboflex]

The way you describe it, the distance bonus would have to be adjusted. People have already tried going distances and apparently you need to travel the length of the map to get the full bonus. Add on the terrain obstacles, which unless your sitting at your computer 24/7, you will run into. Then you have way more than 48 hours. It took me close 100 hours to get from Aldelen (near Tihr) to Halmar because of the obstacles.

Yeah I agree the #s will need to be carefully looked at. Once chadz figures out what is his optimal caravan size (I would tilt to larger sized for better battles but others  like you might disagree) he would need to figure out how much gold /day it should make travelling and balance around that, a realistic & typical voyage should perhaps just be 1/3 of 1/4 of map, with an  exponential bonus for going further to reflect on the extra tedium and danger.

[Overdriven]

Yeah I agree the #s will need to be carefully looked at. Once chadz figures out what is his optimal caravan size (I would tilt to larger sized for better battles but others  like you might disagree) he would need to figure out how much gold /day it should make travelling and balance around that, a realistic & typical voyage should perhaps just be 1/3 of 1/4 of map, with an  exponential bonus for going further to reflect on the extra tedium and danger.

I'm not saying traders shouldn't have troops anyway. They could still have troops, it just shouldn't affect the amount of goods they can carry. If they wanted troops they could have them, but they should also be able to carry goods if they don't want troops. But regardless, the battles shouldn't be fought by traders. They should be fought by the main armies of a clan. If people wanted to attack traders then they would probably have to have small, manoeuvrable raiding forces. But like I said, traders would stick to territories that are safe, and clans that attack traders would lose out.

It won't limit the number of epic battles you have. If anything it would probably increase them because armies/traders would be two seperate entities and so armies could focus on battles and traders on wealth. That way they also have to rely on each other. Armies to secure land and control territories, and traders to generate wealth to support those armies.

[Turboflex]

But the point of traders is not to fight epic battles. Those will be a separate thing. They are there to generate the wealth needed for other people to maintain the armies. Caravans should be involved in as few battles as possible. That way you also make it more interesting for the general player. You have some commanding the armies, but also some generating the wealth for the clan.

There should be some form of limit on numbers of goods. But tying it to troops isn't sensible. Tying it to something else would make more sense.

You might like the idea of setting up peaceful trade treaties through diplomacy to allow the passage of lightly guarded caravans but I can assure you that plenty of other players (including my "Norse Horde" clan) are looking quite keenly on the idea of ambushing (using that nifty new terrain) and plundering those same caravans which is why there will usually be a need to guard them very heavily.

[Turboflex]

I'm not saying traders shouldn't have troops anyway. They could still have troops, it just shouldn't affect the amount of goods they can carry. If they wanted troops they could have them, but they should also be able to carry goods if they don't want troops. But regardless, the battles shouldn't be fought by traders. They should be fought by the main armies of a clan. If people wanted to attack traders then they would probably have to have small, manoeuvrable raiding forces. But like I said, traders would stick to territories that are safe, and clans that attack traders would lose out.

It won't limit the number of epic battles you have. If anything it would probably increase them because armies/traders would be two seperate entities and so armies could focus on battles and traders on wealth. That way they also have to rely on each other. Armies to secure land and control territories, and traders to generate wealth to support those armies.

OK well mostly agreed here. It will be neat to see how it shakes out now over the next few weeks once everyone gets settled, builds up and starts running them.

[Bjarky]

yum, all these words of caravans and guards make my earlobes tickle ^^

[SPQR]

Dude I think you're seriously underestimating how long it takes to get anywhere. It took me 24 hours to travel from Bazek to Ulduban with only 40 troops, and the aid of a quick march at the end. Total trade bonus from that distance: 34%


Just some experimental math to take 100 goods across the map with 100 troops:

100 goods at 8gold per item: 800
10 Smithing Skill x 1.5 items per hour = 67 hours x 5 gold per hour visiting fee = 335
100 Troops = 8 gold upkeep per hour (someone check this, not sure this is right)
168 hours to cross map: 168 x 8= 1344
Total Cost: 2479

100 goods @ 450% of 16 = 72x100 = 7200

7200 - 2479 = 4721 profit

4721 / 235 hours = 20 gold per hour return

[BaleOhay]

then you have to travel back.. so do not forget that cost. unless you stay out there and start crafting again for a return trip... in someone else town.. who will be charging you rent

[SPQR]

Also not factoring in the 10k needed to equip those troops.